Does God know the future?
- Thread starter intro2faith
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Clete comes close to an understanding of how contingent things fullfill God's providence without affecting their contingent nature.
They are fulfilled through their contingent nature by proximation to the goal God has planned.
This is very similar to Clete's argument of God letting things come to pass.
They are fulfilled through their contingent nature by proximation to the goal God has planned.
This is very similar to Clete's argument of God letting things come to pass.
logos_x
New member
On this thread, Knight posted the definitive argument that caused all my problems with the Open Veiw to disappear.
Once this is seen, God's redemptive interaction effectively elliminates any need for exhaustive foreknowledge. It also is the most consonant view with the Bible's presentation.
I therefore have reconsidered my previous arguments for exhaustive foreknowledge, and find them to be erroneous.
Thank you Knight for letting God use you to let me see it. :BRAVO:
Knight said:God wants to affect our freewill! He wants to move us in the direction that more closely conforms to His will.
If God were an uninvolved God watching creation from a distance one might be able to make a more persuasive argument that God can know our future without effecting our freewill (the argument still fails logically but it would be far more understandable). Yet that isn't the God of the Bible! Please don't misunderstand, I am not claiming that those arguing for freewill and exhaustive foreknowledge being compatible are claiming God is not involved, far from it! I am simply saying that their argument would be more believable if God weren't a personal God.
God is in the business of effecting our will without completely controlling our will. Sort of like gathering sheep. :sheep:
Once this is seen, God's redemptive interaction effectively elliminates any need for exhaustive foreknowledge. It also is the most consonant view with the Bible's presentation.
I therefore have reconsidered my previous arguments for exhaustive foreknowledge, and find them to be erroneous.
Thank you Knight for letting God use you to let me see it. :BRAVO:
Thank you very much, that is very nice of you to say. I must admit I am excited about exploring this new avenue even further.logos_x said:
God I can trust, yet man I cannot.Z Man said:
Z Man you are a hard core Calvinist and therefore believe that God ordained every action for all of history and therefore you can also trust God in that you can trust that God is responsible for all of the evil that has ever occurred.
My post was a response to your comment "How can YOU trust in YOUR God?!" nothing more nothing less.Z Man said:
I believe that I can convince you that I am right and you are wrong. I am not saying I will convince you, but I am saying it's theoretically possible that I could convince you.
You, on the other hand cannot share this belief.
Your own theology prevents you from having any ability whatsoever in convincing me that you are right and that I am wrong. Any appearence that you had convinced me of anything at all would simply be appearence and nothing more.
So tell me . . . should I conform my view regarding God's character to your view regarding God's character?
Should I do that?
Can I do that?
Emphasis on "I".
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
Z Man said:
How can a prophecy or prediction be "thwarted"? A prediction is nothing more than an assessment of a possible future outcome. By our free will we can deviate from the path that we (or God) set ourselves on. Knowledge of an absolute, definitive outcome is unknowable, thats why these are "prophecies" and "predictions." If the future is known than the future is set; no being but God has the power to do such a thing. Therefore, If God knows the future He has set the future. If He has set the future our choices are made for us and we have no free will. In that case we have no choice in choosing God and we have no choice in what we do, period. God does not know the future.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
.
Can you prove my logic wrong?
But contingent things will happen from contingency, proximation to the goal of God.[/QUOTE]
Yes this is true (and a tautology). Things that are possible will possibly happen...none of this is absolute. I may not understand what you mean...proximation?
Z Man
New member
My purpose in life is not to convince you of anything. If God wants you to know, you'll know.Knight said:
However, God is not magically going to change your mind without any 'evidence', or facts, or beliefs to conform your mind around. In other words, you won't change your mind for nothing. That's where I come in.
Even so, I ponder how you and others can really believe that God does not know the future when the Bible says otherwise. It's heresy if you ask me. You deliberately forsake the teachings of the Bible to uphold your ridiculus 'we-must-have-freewill' doctrine. To you, it's all about us and not about God. You believe in freewill so much that it blinds you from the obvious truth found in Scripture.
death2, it is not a tautology. An example would be a similarity to the internet. You send something through the internet and it could take a million different paths, but in general because God draws us towards Him as the ultimate good and desirable, God's goals will be fufilled.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
Speaking from one mortal to another, our choice is what brings us to our eventual destination, our "future." If the future is known all our choices are known and thus predetermined.
I disagree. What about God commanding Abraham to kill Issaic, it was a test of faith. If God new the future he wouldn't have needed to test him in that way. He had his own choice to follow and trust or to disobey, and had God known the future (thus knowing the outcome) it would have been pointless to put him up to it. Or do you think God just wanted to make sure he was right. :think:
Z Man
New member
You didn't answer my question. Why is 'choice' important? Why is it important that we be in control of our future?death2impiety said:
Do you honestly believe God tested Abraham for Himself? The test Abraham endured wasn't for God, but for Abraham. God tested Abraham to make him a better, wiser man; one who's faith I'm sure tripled afterwards in God.
You said, "If God new the future he wouldn't have needed to test him in that way. He had his own choice to follow and trust or to disobey, and had God known the future (thus knowing the outcome) it would have been pointless to put him up to it." But again, the test wasn't for God's benefit, it was for Abraham. God knowing the outcome had nothing to do with the test. Of course He knew the outcome. And even though He did, it didn't make the test pointless. Abraham didn't know the outcome. He needed to be tested. And that's what God did.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
Choice is important because it is our demonstration of free will: The choice to choose God or deny Him.
Alright, I'll conceed that this is a bad example
thanks for pointing it out so I can stop using it :dunce:. But lets go back the previous analogy of a football game. Lets just say God is interested in a particular football game. His knowing the outcome and all the steps that lead up to the eventual outcome illustrate that the actions are done and accounted for or predetermined. There is no freedom in improv when a miracle script is supplied to the viewers. The best you can say here is that God knew all the myriad of possible outcomes at every specific instant of that game. When God knows the future it would follow that he must know all the choices that we may be presented with or contemplate making. If it also followed that God knew which choice we were to make, the choice has been made already and gone, the future is set in the mind of God and free will is gone. Its a paradox in your view that you don't seem to grasp. The only way to alleviate said paradox is to say that God has "the best guess" as to which road we will walk down, leaving Him able to make "predictions" as to where we will end up, unknowing which one we will take for certain.
death2impiety
Maximeee's Husband
Sorry to anyone who finds any hint of arrogance in my words...I'm closed minded, but not as much about this topic as i'm making it appear that I am. I could be wrong about all this but I've spent a lot of time thinking about it...so naturally I believe what I think