Does God know the future?

[philosophizer]

Knowing is not causing.

How can "knowing" not be "causing" when we're talking about God? God is the Creator, right? Not just a passive observer?

 

[Clete]

One final note. Saying God will let something come to pass is saying he will cause it to pass.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Nancy. Sorry.

It says explicitly in Scripture that God has foreknowledge "predestination."

Again, saying it doesn't make it so.
Chapter and verse please.

If God knows somethings that will happen in the future, then there is no reason to believe God doesn't know everything perfectly.

Do you know what the word "substantiate" means?
Besides, there is a lot of reasons to believe that God doesn't know the future exhaustively. Like unfulfilled prophecy for example, instances of which I have already cited. Whould you like for me to list them again or would you just ignore them again?

Knowing is not causing.

Philosphizer has made a pretty good argument that this is not so if the one doing the knowing is God. But aside from that, no one has suggested otherwise.

We are not going to have a full understanding of predestination as you are trying to view the way God knows with how humans know. Besides, Scripture is SUPERNATURAL revelation from God. God reveals himself to us. Natural human reason cannot fully grasp it.

Thank you for conceding that your theology is irrational and cannot be understood or made sense of.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[nancy]

We are just going in circles with this argument so lets agree to disagree.

You should not get pure human philosophy mixed up with theology. That is what is happening here. Because the mind of God is not conceivable to humans, you are trying to limit God to the limits of human reason. Human reason is limited by our own sense perception and subjectivity.

This is a problem with the Protestant faith in general. They have boxed God into some abstract after thought of the mind instead of a living mystery that is with us now.

My post #226 has all the passages from scripture for predestination you need.

P.S. You were the one who started the whole causal argument with your causal determinism post.

Good Luck!

 

[Clete]

We are just going in circles with this argument so lets agree to disagree.

You should not get pure human philosophy mixed up with theology. That is what is happening here. Because the mind of God is not conceivable to humans, you are trying to limit God to the limits of human reason. Human reason is limited by our own sense perception and subjectivity.

This is a problem with the Protestant faith in general. They have boxed God into some abstract after thought of the mind instead of a living mystery that is with us now.

Good Luck!

No one is saying that they have God completely figured out and it has precisely nothing to do with Protestantism. Could you explain how it would be invalid of me to turn around and accuse you of being the one who is putting God is a box of enigmatic mystery and confusion? Why is your accusation any more valid that one that I might to the contrary? You can't answer that question, can you? You can't because there is no answer. The fact is I can and if I did, I would not be anymore valid or invalid that your accusation even though it is precisely the opposite. You know what that means, Nancy? That means your accusation is meaningless.

Further, with your position, as you've stated it here, you could literally believe anything at all! If one's beliefs do not have to be substantiated then what's to stop some crackpot from teaching whatever he wants to teach? God is not a God of confusion and incoherence but of order and reason. "Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord. But you want to throw reason to the wind in favor of your theology. And I'm here to tell you that you don't have that option. The very word 'theology' means the logos of the theos, the logic of God. Theology that is illogical is an oxymoron; you cannot have one without the other.

Further still, I have said nothing that you can demonstrate to be unbiblical and so you are lost on both counts. You have all but admitted that my theology is logical and you are either unable or unwilling to refute it Biblically. So what are you left? Your own personal preferences, right? You prefer to believe what you've been taught rather than what can be demonstrated to be both Biblical and of sound reason. That's a sin, Nancy. You should take courage and repent. Trust God, trust His word, let those who teach you be damned. Do right and risk the consequences. You won't be sorry you did.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[nancy]

Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?

 

[philosophizer]

Logic and Reason are not things that come in several different flavors depending on where you are at the time. They are not specific answers to questions. They are simply the process that we use to approach Truth. God's logic and our logic are not two different things. God created that process as a means of approaching and knowing Him. We may be missing some of the details and premises to pour into that process, but that doesn't mean that the process itself is somehow flawed simply because we use it.

 

[philosophizer]

Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?

Does "predestination" necessarily refer to individuals?

 

[Clete]

Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?

Scripture, always!

Chapter and verse please.

 

[intro2faith]

How can "knowing" not be "causing" when we're talking about God? God is the Creator, right? Not just a passive observer?

Ok, so God knows what I'm planning to do in 3 hours, does that mean He caused me to do it? Knowing is NOT causing.

 

[philosophizer]

Ok, so God knows what I'm planning to do in 3 hours, does that mean He caused me to do it? Knowing is NOT causing.

Did God see that scene that takes place 3 hours from now when He created the universe? If so, He must have created that scene as well. If so, how is His knowing the scene any different from His causing the scene?

 

[philosophizer]

For US, knowing something in advance does not equal causing it. But for GOD there is a different distinction because He is the Creator. For HIM, to know but not cause would mean that He also did not create.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Did God see that scene that takes place 3 hours from now when He created the universe? If so, He must have created that scene as well. If so, how is His knowing the scene any different from His causing the scene?

Brilliant! :up:

 

[philosophizer]

So, either He creates, causes, and knows;

or

He creates, we cause, and the future is open for our free will.


There is no middle ground that still allows Him to be the Creator.

 

[nancy]

Already the verses in my post 226

 

[godrulz]

I agree. But if God is "seeing" the future, then it has to exist, at least to God. And if it exists, then He created it. So the question I was asking is, from God's perspective, what's the difference between "seeing" and "causing"? Is there one?

God cannot see a nothing. It is a wrong assumption to think the future is the same as the past or present. There is not future to see since it is not a thing. Once possibilities become actualities, they are seen, but then become part of memory or history only. If you must use a film analogy, we can watch recorded historical events, but we cannot watch the 2010 Superbowl before it happens. It is not in the archives of heaven yet either. God has not watched or seen the game yet either. It has not happened and is not a possible object of knowledge. God sees and knows the past and present perfectly. He will see the future as it actually unfolds. In the mean time, it is a mere possibility that is not 'seeable'.

 

[godrulz]

Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?

Election is corporate, not individual. You are wrongly assuming your preconceived interpretations are Scripture. It is not explicit that He knows who will be saved or not (unless Calvinism's TULIP is true). It is explicit that He will have a people for Himself. All who believe become part of the corporate elect. It is contrary to impartial love and justice to pick some and reject others for eternal life. His redemption was intended for all men, but not all men appropriate His perfect provision.

 

[godrulz]

Ok, so God knows what I'm planning to do in 3 hours, does that mean He caused me to do it? Knowing is NOT causing.

Can you freely change your mind and will and do something different in 3 hours?

If not, you are not free.

This proximal prediction cannot be extrapolated to mean God knows every mundane detail of what we will do before we even existed (i.e. from eternity past).

 

[nancy]

Godrulz it EXPLICITELY says he knows who will be saved and who will not. He is not picking people, he had foreknowledge.

Read my post #226. I specifically separated predestination of grace and glory.

 

[Clete]

God cannot see a nothing. It is a wrong assumption to think the future is the same as the past or present. There is not future to see since it is not a thing. Once possibilities become actualities, they are seen, but then become part of memory or history only. If you must use a film analogy, we can watch recorded historical events, but we cannot watch the 2010 Superbowl before it happens. It is not in the archives of heaven yet either. God has not watched or seen the game yet either. It has not happened and is not a possible object of knowledge. God sees and knows the past and present perfectly. He will see the future as it actually unfolds. In the mean time, it is a mere possibility that is not 'seeable'.

Philosophizer is making an argument that assumes Nancy is correct about God knowing the future. He isn't saying that he agrees, he's saying basically "Even if you're right, you're still wrong." It's a brilliant agrument.

 

[Clete]

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God "predestined" us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no free will). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God's foreknowledge. See, for example, 1Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." The terms "predestination" and "the elect" alway refer to God's knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two tyes of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

Nice but this is not what the verse says at all. This is how your theology forces you to interpret the verse but it is not what the verse itself says.

Eph1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

We have been predestined IN HIM, not in ourselves. God predestined the those in the Body of Christ would be saved, not that particular individuals that didn't even exist yet would be saved.

1Pet.1:1-2 - teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:​

This verse is talking to and about believing members of the nation of Israel. A nation which God elected for a purpose not to salvation.

Rom. 8:29-30 - Paul also wries that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but perservering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

Again we are predestined IN JESUS. It is the existence of and the glorification of the Body of Christ which has been predestined not particular individuals. This theme is discussed repeatedly by Paul in many of his letters.

1Cor. 15:49 - Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the ressurection, when we shall bear the image of man in heaven. These are the people who are predestined to gory.

1 Cor. 15:9And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.​

This verse says precisely nothing about predestination.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace not to glory).

Rev. 3:5He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.​

Again this verse says nothing about predestination. In fact it would seem to argue against it. "He who overcomes" was predestined to overcome was he not, occording to your theology? If so then it makes no sense to even say this sentence. If not then you contradict yourself.

Eph 1:5; 1Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that god determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our free will.

Semantics and doublt talk. Words mean what they mean. You are not in a position to redefine the English language in whatever convoluted manner suits your fancy. Besides, this whole debate stated asking the question whether we are free if God simply knows the future. It is you who kept insisting that we were talking about predestination of that God knowledge was causative. My argument has always been that if God knows the future I cannot do other that whay God knows and that I therefore am not free. This argument you have ignored almost completely.

Ezek 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our free will, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God does not also predetermine certain people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace needed to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

I agree with you completely here.

2 Peter 3:9 - God is forebearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentence. God's wills all to be saved., but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God's grace.

Again I agree. This is the message of the whole Bible. But this passage says nothing about predestination.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the father that any should perish, but he has given us free will to choose.

1Tim. 2:4, 2Pet. 3:9, James 1:13 - 14, 1 Cor. 10:13.

All these verses speak of predestination.

None of these verses speak of predestination at all. What do you think, that none of own Bibles?

1 Tim 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

James 1:13Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

1 Cor. 1013No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.​

If this is what you call establishing your position Biblically, you are sadly mistaken. :nono:

Resting in Him,
Clete