Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Arthur Brain]

Ignoring your ongoing denial of the doctrine of everlasting punishment, you are speaking nonsense. No one but God knows who is elect or who is not. Do your Scriptural duty and teach your children the things of God, leaving the matter of their eternal destiny in His hands rather than trying to peer behind the curtain and ascertain what is forbidden (Deut. 29:29).

The promiscuous spreading of the Good News is the ordinary means by which the children of God are brought into the Kingdom. God commands we preach the Gospel to all persons. We obey. Those efficaciously called by God the Holy Spirit are born anew (Eze. 36:26). They are now able to hear the Good News with ears to hear. They do hear. They indeed will believe. They are then justified and in union with Our Lord. God decreed these means and our obedience to do them is how these means are used for His ends.

AMR

Look AMR, when someone like you says that preaching and witnessing will help heap burning coals on the head of 'reprobates' then you lose any right to lecture anybody about their "spiritual duty". Your doctrine is sick and I would not teach any child the type of callous tripe that you and others purport on here. If you weren't so blinded by your own intellect then you might see how much any love you have has suffered for it. You don't get to talk about someone's family as if they're nothing other than vessels of potential wrath effectively and then proceed to tell them what to say. You're like a clanging cymbal.

EDIT: Oh, and I never said anyone 'knew' who the "elect" could be anyway. The fact that your doctrine stipulates that any family could be "lost" via decree is disgusting enough in itself.

 

[patrick jane]

I purged several messages and will clean up more later. Is Theology Online so low on disk space that we are limited to 50 private messages at once?

You get many more if you subscribe - join during the TOL-A-Thon !!! Or on Black Friday !! Or today !!!

 

[patrick jane]

I purged several messages and will clean up more later. Is Theology Online so low on disk space that we are limited to 50 private messages at once?

Most of them from Michael? :chuckle:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Oh, and AMR, if only God only knows who's part of this 'elect' then you can't say with any surety that you're part of it...

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Look AMR, when someone like you says that preaching and witnessing will help heap burning coals on the head of 'reprobates' then you lose any right to lecture anybody about their "spiritual duty". Your doctrine is sick and I would not teach any child the type of callous tripe that you and others purport on here. If you weren't so blinded by your own intellect then you might see how much any love you have has suffered for it. You don't get to talk about someone's family as if they're nothing other than vessels of potential wrath effectively and then proceed to tell them what to say. You're like a clanging cymbal.

Then do not raise up your children as commanded in Scripture. Your quibble is not with me, but with God. That said, I suspect you will actually teach them as you are commanded. You will go off thinking you had it all correct. No matter. Just do your duty and God will do as He is so pleased to do. The same sun that melts the snow, hardens the clay. The Gospel brings some into the Kingdom and hardens others even moreso than their originally fallen state. God is not obliged to pour out salvific grace upon all of the lost from birth. Mercy is getting what you do not deserve. Justice is getting what you do.

If you deny original sin then yours is the error that results. All are born sinners and sin because they are sinners. We do not become sinners from some morally neutral state at birth. We all sinned in Adam just as if we were there with him in the Garden.

Add the above orthodox doctrine of the church militant to your other error of denying eternal everlasting punishment. Those that are "other" when it comes to matters of doctrine will always be found to hold many errors denounced by the church. You are but one of the many poster childs for the observation.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I purged several messages and will clean up more later. Is Theology Online so low on disk space that we are limited to 50 private messages at once?

Why are you a blue member?
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ions-Explained&p=735911&viewfull=1#post735911

Blue members...
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...e-subscriber&p=2132871&viewfull=1#post2132871

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Oh, and AMR, if only God only knows who's part of this 'elect' then you can't say with any surety that you're part of it...

Er, no. You should read more about what we believe versus shooting from the hip...

Spoiler

As is stated from the WCF

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Cant. 5:2, 3, 6, Ps. 51:8, 12, 14, Eph. 4:30, 31,Ps. 77:1-10, Matt. 26:69-72, Ps. 31:22, Ps. 88, Isa. 50:10)

...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9, Luke 22:32, Job 13:15, Ps. 73:15, Ps. 51:8, 12, Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9, Jer. 32:40, Isa. 54:7-10, Ps. 22:1, Ps. 88)"

It is to believers that assurance belongs. It does not belong to those who "know" just how much or how excellent is their faith. It is the Object of our faith that saves, and it is His hold on us, not our hold on Him. Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed is more than enough to save the weakest sinner--let it only be in Christ.

From the WLC:

"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.

"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."

The "graces" that you are enabled to see in yourself to which the promises of life are made are discussed in the WLC:

1. Faith (Question 32)
2. Justification (Question 73)
3. Good works (Question 73, 75)
4. Repentance unto life (Question 75, 76)
5. Sanctification (Question 75)

From the Canons of Dordt:

"Article 12: The Assurance of Election

"Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God's Word-- such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

"Article 13: The Fruit of This Assurance

"In their awareness and assurance of this election God's children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of his mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to him who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God's children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God's just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen."

That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.

AMR

 

[Arthur Brain]

Then do not raise up your children as commanded in Scripture. Your quibble is not with me, but with God. That said, I suspect you will actually teach them as you are commanded. You will go off thinking you had it all correct. No matter. Just do your duty and God will do as He is so pleased to do. The same sun that melts the snow, hardens the clay. The Gospel brings some into the Kingdom and hardens others even moreso than their originally fallen state. God is not obliged to pour out salvific grace upon all of the lost from birth. Mercy is getting what you do not deserve. Justice is getting what you do.

If you deny original sin then yours is the error that results. All are born sinners and sin because they are sinners. We do not become sinners from some morally neutral state at birth. We all sinned in Adam just as if we were there with him in the Garden.

Add the above orthodox doctrine of the church militant to your other error of denying eternal everlasting punishment. Those that are "other" when it comes to matters of doctrine will always be found to hold many errors denounced by the church. You are but one of the many poster childs for the observation.

AMR

My quibble is with sick doctrines, the heartless attitudes and supercilious arrogance that often go with them. It's rather rich that you would insinuate that I think I have it all correct where I've yet to see you even question whether your own belief is correct. You can claim eternal suffering is truth as much as you will, your theological insistence upon it doesn't make it so, in much the same way that your strict adherence to reformed theology doesn't make Calvinism correct either. Heck, you reduce the suffering of other people to nothing more than an intellectual exercise as it is. There's simply no love in how you talk about things AMR.

Oh, and as before, if only God knows who the 'elect' are then you have no assurances that you're actually part of it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Er, no. You should read more about what we believe versus shooting from the hip...

Spoiler

As is stated from the WCF

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Cant. 5:2, 3, 6, Ps. 51:8, 12, 14, Eph. 4:30, 31,Ps. 77:1-10, Matt. 26:69-72, Ps. 31:22, Ps. 88, Isa. 50:10)

...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9, Luke 22:32, Job 13:15, Ps. 73:15, Ps. 51:8, 12, Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9, Jer. 32:40, Isa. 54:7-10, Ps. 22:1, Ps. 88)"

It is to believers that assurance belongs. It does not belong to those who "know" just how much or how excellent is their faith. It is the Object of our faith that saves, and it is His hold on us, not our hold on Him. Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed is more than enough to save the weakest sinner--let it only be in Christ.

From the WLC:

"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.

"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?

"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."

The "graces" that you are enabled to see in yourself to which the promises of life are made are discussed in the WLC:

1. Faith (Question 32)
2. Justification (Question 73)
3. Good works (Question 73, 75)
4. Repentance unto life (Question 75, 76)
5. Sanctification (Question 75)

From the Canons of Dordt:

"Article 12: The Assurance of Election

"Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God's Word-- such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

"Article 13: The Fruit of This Assurance

"In their awareness and assurance of this election God's children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of his mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to him who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God's children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God's just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen."

That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.

AMR

You still can't know AMR. After all, you don't believe all those who profess faith are 'saved' do you?

 

[Brother Ducky]

The only thing you're capable of spreading is Calvinist propaganda. Christ died for the sins of ALL humanity. However, only those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits of His death and resurrection. You'll notice in Revelation 20:12 it states: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."


You'll notice it says the unsaved were judged by their WORKS and not their SINS, Why, because, Christ paid for ALL the sins of humanity at the cross 2000 years ago.

So hell is populated with sinless people?

 

[Angel4Truth]

No one but God knows who is elect or who is not.

1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true — in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Oh, and as before, if only God knows who the 'elect' are then you have no assurances that you're actually part of it.

Seems to me that one can have reasonable assurance that one is elect, if one is a professing Christian and fruit is evident in one's life.

If one is looking at people who are not [yet] professing Christians one certainly can't begin to guess at whom is elect.

One can be reasonably be assured if one is a believer. At least as sure as one can be sure of one's own salvation.

 

[Robert Pate]

Seems to me that one can have reasonable assurance that one is elect, if one is a professing Christian and fruit is evident in one's life.

If one is looking at people who are not [yet] professing Christians one certainly can't begin to guess at whom is elect.

One can be reasonably be assured if one is a believer. At least as sure as one can be sure of one's own salvation.

Professing one is a Christian, does not make one a Christian.

A Christian is one that has faith in the doing and dying of Jesus for their salvation.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Professing one is a Christian, does not make one a Christian.

A Christian is one that has faith in the doing and dying of Jesus for their salvation.

True enough. Your point?

 

[beloved57]

Professing one is a Christian, does not make one a Christian.

A Christian is one that has faith in the doing and dying of Jesus for their salvation.

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ did and died for still wind up lost in their sins!

 

[popsthebuilder]

It seems universal reconciliation is being put off as if not biblical so I would like to go over some of it.

Colossians 1: -15-16-17-18-19-20

Colossians: 1. 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1 Corinthians: 15. 21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians: 15. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Ephesians: 1. 9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

1 Timothy: 2. 1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy: 4. 9. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11. These things command and teach.

I thinks that's enough for now.

As far as annihilationism is concerned; I referenced this link as simple showing mistranslated or misinterpreted texts isn't going to do it justice, especially since some think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Here's the link http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/

Pretty interesting, even to Calvinists surely.

At least those without bias and misplaced pride. (not saying any here are that way, just compelling evidence in my opinion.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true — in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Good post

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

So hell is populated with sinless people?

The Lake of Fire will be the eternal place of punishment for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and rejected God's only salvation which was through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation was available to those who are condemned, however, they didn't receive it through faith.

If you don't like my analogy, create your own, but, I'm sure you get the gist.

To draw a very simple analogy: A company pays for the Health Insurance of all its employees, however, some will not take advantage of the free insurance, for whatever the reason. The insurance was there for them, but, they never accepted its availability.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Look AMR, when someone like you says that preaching and witnessing will help heap burning coals on the head of 'reprobates' then you lose any right to lecture anybody about their "spiritual duty". Your doctrine is sick and I would not teach any child the type of callous tripe that you and others purport on here. If you weren't so blinded by your own intellect then you might see how much any love you have has suffered for it. You don't get to talk about someone's family as if they're nothing other than vessels of potential wrath effectively and then proceed to tell them what to say. You're like a clanging cymbal.

EDIT: Oh, and I never said anyone 'knew' who the "elect" could be anyway. The fact that your doctrine stipulates that any family could be "lost" via decree is disgusting enough in itself.

Really good post.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I have not implied that I do know, have I? Are you reading things carefully? No one knows but God and He has not revealed anything about the exact identities of His children (Deut. 29:29).

Importing the secret will of God into matters of salvation is unwarranted. You have no basis to presume to know who is or who is not elect. Hence, the command from God to promiscuously share the Gospel. Are we not to marvel at the mercy of God? How exactly do we do so if there are no objects of mercy (Psalm 86:15; Romans 3:23; 9:15)? Is God obliged to withhold the full display of all His attributes because some of them are just to "uncomfortable" for us to consider?

Your humanism is showing, GM.

AMR

Your "false doctrine and false gospel" are showing AMR. Why not purchase a large covering to throw over them? Perhaps an old used Circus tent?