Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Clete]

Clete, show me in the Bible where it says I must believe in the trinity to be saved!

Why would I do that?

I never made such a claim and I've shown you in the Bible where it says that Jesus is God and you ignored that so what would be the point even if I had?

People pull others to pieces, calling them heretics and say that they not even worth speaking to because they say that you must believe in the trinity to belong to God and to be saved. And if you don't believe in the trinity, your not a Christian and even saying that those who don't agree with the trinity doctrine are unbelievers and belong to Satan.

So, show me where it says that I must believe in the trinity in the Bible? Which chapter and verse is it in?

I never made any such claim. Stop reacting emotionally and think. I say precisely what I mean - precisely.

There is nothing that the bible teaches more clearly than that Jesus is the incarnate Creator God Himself. The bible doesn't teach that God created the universe in six days any more clearly than it teaches that Jesus is God Himself. If you deny that Jesus is God then you base your religious beliefs on something other than what the bible teaches, you worship the wrong Jesus and are not a Christian any more than the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses are.

Of course, that won't prevent you from calling yourself a Christian but, as I seem to continuously have to remind people around here, saying it doesn't make it so. The term "Christian" has a meaning and those who do not worship Jesus don't fall under the definition of the term.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[marhig]

John 1-1 states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I don't believe that one NEEDS to have a clear understanding of the Trinity to become part of the Body of Christ, however, I personally believe that there are three different entities involved. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. John 1-1 speaks of the WORD, which is Christ. It states that Christ IS God. It also states that Christ (The Word) was WITH God. That speaks of "God the Father."

John 16:7 states: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." This speaks of God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, by showing the differences between the three "entities" (The Trinity) we can accept that there are three. We cannot point to ONE particular Scripture verse that states we MUST believe in the Trinity. Everyone has their own analogies to represent the Trinity. However, as we look at different verses we can see that there are three distinct entities, yet, there is ONLY one God divided into three different beings, but, they still remain ONE. We must accept this, in faith. No, one analogy can possibly represent the obvious. John 1:14 states: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

As we recall John 1:1 Stated: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Therefore, we know that the WORD is Christ and He was with God the Father and He (Christ) was God. So, when we place it all together: God the Son became flesh, while, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit remained in Heaven. In conclusion, Christ IS part of the Diety. He is God as is The Father and The Holy Spirit. Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane prayed to God the Father. He wasn't praying to Himself. Right before Christ was to be crucified, He told His Disciples that He would send God The Holy Spirit.

The Bible shows us there are THREE different entities, however, states, there is ONLY one God. To my knowledge, there is no verse of Scripture that states that we MUST have a full understanding of the Trinity to become a member of the Body of Christ, however, we must accept that Christ was/is part of the Godhead.

Grosnick, firstly, thank you for being civil

I too believe in the three different entities, and I believe that they are all of one nature, but I do clearly see though that the father is God and he is over all, but he has put Jesus over everything and he is the mediator and the only way to God is through Christ.

I see a picture of this in the stories of Daniel and Joseph, where the king had Daniel rule in his stead and the Pharaoh did the same with Joseph they were entrusted to rule the kingdom. (I'm only using that as a picture) I see that God has done this with Jesus and he is over everything having been exhalted by God to his right hand and the only way to God is through him.

Philippians 2

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things.in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Grosnick, I love God and Jesus Christ with all my heart and i follow Jesus, i have complete faith, and I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God. I have given my heart to God and I try to live by his will, I do fall I'm not perfect, but I hope he forgives me for my foolishness in my flesh. I do believe differently to you and others here, but my love for God is strong, I go to him always and for everything and I know he's with me because I feel him in my heart and I hear him he guides me everyday and he's changing my heart.

My point is, how can other people condemn others, looking down on them so much because they don't believe in the trinity, yet nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe in it? Jesus never taught that we have to, he taught that faith saves as does Paul, Peter and the others. And only through the grace of God.

We were talking about this in our house meeting last night, how we can't do anything without Gods spirit within, and I thought of the lords prayer and how we ask for God's kingdom to come, and it's only then, once we have the indwelling spirit is his will done in earth as it is in heaven. So I know, that without Christ and without the holy spirit in my heart I am nothing but dust still dead in sin. It's only through Christ by the spirit that i have been given life and brought back to God. I'm free, and the holy spirit teaches me every day to turn from sin opening my eyes and showing me where I'm wrong guiding me through my conscience not to do it and giving me the strength to overcome. And Jesus came as a perfect example and I go and look at that example if I'm not sure about something and I think, what would Jesus do, I go back to him who was sinless to guide me and i pray to God from my heart.

Thank you for pointing me towards those verses. But I can also quote verse after verse to show why I believe as I do, and I believe that there is plenty in the Bible to support my beliefs. Well enough to show that others have no right to condemn me for not believing as they do, and they are telling me that i must believe in their way to be saved yet nowhere in the Bible does it say I have to do this?

I hope that all here get into heaven, if I get there then i hope to see all of you there. I couldn't condemn another human being, because I know what I'm like and I have no right to condemn another.

By the way, I pray to God too before I post and I have even written a whole post and then deleted because I had a conscience not to post it. I go to God for everything,
Without God I'm nothing!

 

[marhig]

Why would I do that?

I never made such a claim and I've shown you in the Bible where it says that Jesus is God and you ignored that so what would be the point even if I had?


I never made any such claim. Stop reacting emotionally and think. I say precisely what I mean - precisely.

There is nothing that the bible teaches more clearly than that Jesus is the incarnate Creator God Himself. The bible doesn't teach that God created the universe in six days any more clearly than it teaches that Jesus is God Himself. If you deny that Jesus is God then you base your religious beliefs on something other than what the bible teaches, you worship the wrong Jesus and are not a Christian any more than the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses are.

Of course, that won't prevent you from calling yourself a Christian but, as I seem to continuously have to remind people around here, saying it doesn't make it so. The term "Christian" has a meaning and those who do not worship Jesus don't fall under the definition of the term.

Resting in Him,
Clete

And there's nothing in the Bible that says that I have to believe in the trinity to be saved!

And you're right, just saying your a Christian means nothing, you can say you believe in the trinity too and all that means nothing, we must be born anew to truly belong to God. Without Christ and without the indwelling holy spirit we are dead in our sins!

Those who are truly Christs, follow Jesus and worship the father in spirit and in truth, they love God and Christ and obey their commandments. They walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. They are those who do the will of the father, those who lay down their lives for God to bring God and Christ to others, who show love, forgiveness and mercy, those who have soft hearts and rely on God for guidance who treat others as they would like to be treated themselves thinking of those who they meet and helping those in need. Who don't look down on others and they know that God loves all and hope that all will hear his word turn back to him.

Those who truly belong to God, do the will of God and through the spirit of truth they die the death so that Christ can live in them and through them and through Christ they hope for everyone to know the living God.

 

[beloved57]

Actually; the two verses you took out of context speak against the Trinity.

Not that I expect any here to understand it, or at least openly admit it.

Misdirection stands in stark contrast to the truth.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Evasion!

 

[beloved57]

Only those sinners like yourself that don't have faith and believe they have to be predestinated.

Those sinners Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !

 

[Lazy afternoon]

On the contrary. I directly quoted the verses with almost no comment at all to accompany them specifically because I knew some stiff-necked nincompoop would make such a charge.

You simply do not wish to conform your religious beliefs to what the bible plainly states. Again, there are issues that are debatable; there are issues on which the bible is less than perfectly clear; there are things that the bible does not say explicitly; this is not one of those things. You just don't get to believe anything at all and still get to rightly call yourself a Christian, LA. I, for the life of me, cannot figure out what the heck would cause you to want to deny such a flatly obvious teaching as the deity of Christ but I'm not here to read minds. You can believe whatever you want, just don't delude yourself into thinking that you're worshiping God if you aren't worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of all things and in Whom all things consist.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Just stop being high and mighty.

How can you say Jesus is the creator when the Creator is sitting on the throne ---

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

and then the Creator receives the man Jesus who is found worthy to open the scroll--

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

They worship Him who sits upon the throne,--
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

just as Jesus directed men ought do.---

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

Grosnick, firstly, thank you for being civil

Philippians 2

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things.in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There's a trio of verses here that intersect rather nicely. Since you started with one of them, I'd like to pull in the other two. And the surrounding context of the passages are fitting as well.

Isaiah 45:21-23 KJV
(21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:10-11 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who is the savior?
a) God
b) Jesus Christ
c) our God Jesus Christ

Are there any other Gods besides the LORD?
a) yes
b) no

Are there any other Saviors besides the LORD?
a) yes
b) no

Is Jesus Christ our Savior?
a) yes
b) no

According to Paul, when he quotes Isaiah, at whose name will every knee bow?
a) God
b) Jesus
c) our God Jesus

According to Paul, when he quotes Isaiah, unto whom will every tongue confess?
a) God
b) Jesus
c) our God Jesus

Unto whom will God give his glory?
a) another
b) not another

John 17:24 KJV
(24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Unto whom must one look to be saved?
a) God
b) Jesus

John 12:32 KJV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3:14-15 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I meant to just stick with those three (Isaiah Romans Philippians) but they start branching out faster than I can keep track of. Try answering the questions without contradicting the passages already posted. On your own note, not necessarily here. You may be more persuaded if you don't feel like you're in an argument.

 

[Rosenritter]

Who says that the word trinity has to be in the scripture literally for God to be a Triune God? Do you have a scripture that says that ?

Now there's a different term. Can you define "Triune" for us? Seriously, not trying to goad you.

 

[marhig]

As long as a member of the Body of Christ (A true Believer) lives in their body of flesh, they will continue to sin. The True Believer is POSITIONED into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit after they have heard the Grace Gospel and placed their faith in Christ as their Savior. They are also, sealed, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and receive the "Righteousness of Christ" and are guaranteed eternal life. Once they are sealed, etc, they cannot lose their position in the Body of Christ. Ephesians 2:6 states: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Our flesh is weak and will continue to commit sin (Not as a lifestyle) however, on occasion. If one is living a LIFESTYLE of sin (such as homosexuality or adultery) then, one must ponder the question whether they are TRULY a member of the Body of Christ? 2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

I've just been pondering on your post, and I was thinking about being sealed with the holy spirit, and i thought that once something is sealed, nothing gets in. And this is like when we belong to God he seals us with the holy spirit. Then I thought of Noah, and how when he was in the ark God closed the door and sealed it so that the floods couldn't enter. And I thought that this is like our hearts God seals the door of our heart closed and our door is Christ and once we enter in, we are closed from the world, it can't pull us in anymore as it's doing with those who don't know God, drowning them in sin, we are being saved because we are sealed and strengthened by the holy spirit.

The ark was pitched inside and out and this is like being covered on the blood of Christ, having his life inside and out. Then I thought that the ark had a window in it and Noah could see above, and when it was opened the fresh air would have come through the window and this is where he sent out the dove that brought back the olive branch, and i thought that this is like the window of heaven where once it's opened God pours out a blessing, he gives us the breath of life which is the holy spirit, he gives us a glimpse of heaven and he brings us life. He protects us and feeds us.

But, I believe that we can turn away again and put our flesh before God. Examples of this are in Romans 1 and in 2 Peter 2. And God can turn us over to a reprobate mind. Twice dead, dead in our flesh, then knowing God and being brought to life by the spirit, then going back to our life in our flesh, being dead again in danger of being plucked up by the roots, a tree that is plucked up by the root is gone, dead and baring no fruit, and we are danger of this if we go by the will of our flesh rather than obeying the will of God. If we put ourselves first, he will put us last, if we put ourselves last, then God will put us first.

We are to become humble before God and live by his will to truly follow Jesus and God will bless us, strengthening us and sealing us with the holy spirit.

 

[Rosenritter]

Actually no I haven't, you haven't showed me any scripture that says I have to believe in a triune God to be saved. So you haven't proved it with texts at all!

Actually, there's a little implication towards that. This isn't in the sense of "slay the heretics" that one of the Goats here was advocating, but this is closer to on topic.

1 John 3:23 KJV
(23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So, what is the name of his Son Jesus Christ? That is, what does it entail?

1 John 5:5-7 KJV
(5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is, belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is also by the record in heaven of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. Not "these three agree in one" as the former trio of water, blood, and spirit, but literally "these three are one."

Why is this important? Because when Jesus speaks, his words are the words of God, he can make those claims and those judgments because he is our God. Otherwise, what he says has little weight. Just another person speaking. Yet Jesus spoke in a way that had only two possible explanations: he was blasphemous and/or insane, or he really was who he claimed to be, that is, God.

When Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it, he was slain by God's hand before being allowed to lead Israel into Canaan. When Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark rather than to see it fall, God slew him instantly. But when Jesus said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" what happened? Jesus said that he would raise himself by his own power.

If "triune" means "these three are one" then it should be believed because the scripture clearly says so. Because we are told that this is what is meant by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Hebrews 7:3 KJV
(3) Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

How many beings have neither father, nor mother, nor descend, neither beginning of days, nor end of life? Paul says to be like that is to be made like the Son of God. That description only fits an uncreated being that hath immortality. That's what it means to be the "Son of God."

John 6:68-69 KJV
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 20:28-29 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The word "blessed" means covered by his blood. That's the state we all need to be in.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I've just been pondering on your post, and I was thinking about being sealed with the holy spirit, and i thought that once something is sealed, nothing gets in. And this is like when we belong to God he seals us with the holy spirit. Then I thought of Noah, and how when he was in the ark God closed the door and sealed it so that the floods couldn't enter. And I thought that this is like our hearts God seals the door of our heart closed and our door is Christ and once we enter in, we are closed from the world, it can't pull us in anymore as it's doing with those who don't know God, drowning them in sin, we are being saved because we are sealed and strengthened by the holy spirit.

The ark was pitched inside and out and this is like being covered on the blood of Christ, having his life inside and out. Then I thought that the ark had a window in it and Noah could see above, and when it was opened the fresh air would have come through the window and this is where he sent out the dove that brought back the olive branch, and i thought that this is like the window of heaven where once it's opened God pours out a blessing, he gives us the breath of life which is the holy spirit, he gives us a glimpse of heaven and he brings us life. He protects us and feeds us.

But, I believe that we can turn away again and put our flesh before God. Examples of this are in Romans 1 and in 2 Peter 2. And God can turn us over to a reprobate mind. Twice dead, dead in our flesh, then knowing God and being brought to life by the spirit, then going back to our life in our flesh, being dead again in danger of being plucked up by the roots, a tree that is plucked up by the root is gone, dead and baring no fruit, and we are danger of this if we go by the will of our flesh rather than obeying the will of God. If we put ourselves first, he will put us last, if we put ourselves last, then God will put us first.

We are to become humble before God and live by his will to truly follow Jesus and God will bless us, strengthening us and sealing us with the holy spirit.

You started out good. Then, you went down another path, the wrong path. That's a shame.

 

[marhig]

There's a trio of verses here that intersect rather nicely. Since you started with one of them, I'd like to pull in the other two. And the surrounding context of the passages are fitting as well.

Isaiah 45:21-23 KJV
(21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:10-11 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who is the savior?
a) God
b) Jesus Christ
c) our God Jesus Christ

Are there any other Gods besides the LORD?
a) yes
b) no

Are there any other Saviors besides the LORD?
a) yes
b) no

Is Jesus Christ our Savior?
a) yes
b) no

According to Paul, when he quotes Isaiah, at whose name will every knee bow?
a) God
b) Jesus
c) our God Jesus

According to Paul, when he quotes Isaiah, unto whom will every tongue confess?
a) God
b) Jesus
c) our God Jesus

Unto whom will God give his glory?
a) another
b) not another

John 17:24 KJV
(24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Unto whom must one look to be saved?
a) God
b) Jesus

John 12:32 KJV
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 3:14-15 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I meant to just stick with those three (Isaiah Romans Philippians) but they start branching out faster than I can keep track of. Try answering the questions without contradicting the passages already posted. On your own note, not necessarily here. You may be more persuaded if you don't feel like you're in an argument.

And all that is because God has put Jesus over everything, he has exalted him to the highest in heaven. Above all else.

I just want to pick out something that you've highlighted

John 17:24

that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:

God gave Jesus glory, everything that Christ has comes from God.

I could explain all those verses, but here is not the place for me to do so. There's no point as everything is just cast straight back in your face. But regarding as to lifting up the brass serpent in the wilderness how would you see a brass serpent in relation Christ? I'm just interested on your understanding in this. thanks

 

[Rosenritter]

Again, you quote scripture, and then deny that Christ's death saved sinners He died for, so making Christ's death of no effect !

You clearly have "no" idea what the word "no" means. As in "no effect." What you probably should have said that it would have "less than maximum effect."

 

[marhig]

You started out good. Then, you went down another path, the wrong path. That's a shame.

Maybe if you look at Romans 1 and 2 Peter 2 you will see that I'm not so wrong!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Just stop being high and mighty.

How can you say Jesus is the creator when the Creator is sitting on the throne ---

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

and then the Creator receives the man Jesus who is found worthy to open the scroll--

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

They worship Him who sits upon the throne,--
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

just as Jesus directed men ought do.---

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

LA

Clete was right. As usual, you're wrong. You poor soul.

 

[Rosenritter]

And there's nothing in the Bible that says that I have to believe in the trinity to be saved!

I think you've said that plenty of times enough. If someone made that claim they've failed to establish it. Can we move on past that? I would hope that a love of truth and a desire to know our God as he has revealed himself to us would be sufficient motivation, rather than a fear of "not being saved."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Outed myself as what? Not of the masses that go through the wide gate?

Not the prideful who claims the anointed of GOD is too the utter equivalent to the GOD who begot Him?

Not one that speaks only but who strives to live by what they know to be true... Faith?

The misdirection, deception, arrogance, and pandering towards others it sad.

I guess it's still me who poisons the well while you promote and thank utter deceit.

Shame on you. Oh wait, never mind; your conscience has been seared shut as if a branding iron was placed to your eye.

I should hold contempt towards you naturally, but all I feel is sorrow.

I hope by the will of GOD that a light will begin to shine in you so you might be able to see your own error. I will not speak of it anymore as I too am in error.
The difference is that I am aware of my error and will, in GOD's time, by way of the Christ turn from that error,


Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Simply put, you don't know what you're talking about. You poor soul.

 

[marhig]

Actually, there's a little implication towards that. This isn't in the sense of "slay the heretics" that one of the Goats here was advocating, but this is closer to on topic.

1 John 3:23 KJV
(23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So, what is the name of his Son Jesus Christ? That is, what does it entail?

1 John 5:5-7 KJV
(5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is, belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is also by the record in heaven of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. Not "these three agree in one" as the former trio of water, blood, and spirit, but literally "these three are one."

Why is this important? Because when Jesus speaks, his words are the words of God, he can make those claims and those judgments because he is our God. Otherwise, what he says has little weight. Just another person speaking. Yet Jesus spoke in a way that had only two possible explanations: he was blasphemous and/or insane, or he really was who he claimed to be, that is, God.

When Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it, he was slain by God's hand before being allowed to lead Israel into Canaan. When Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark rather than to see it fall, God slew him instantly. But when Jesus said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" what happened? Jesus said that he would raise himself by his own power.

If "triune" means "these three are one" then it should be believed because the scripture clearly says so. Because we are told that this is what is meant by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Hebrews 7:3 KJV
(3) Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

How many beings have neither father, nor mother, nor descend, neither beginning of days, nor end of life? Paul says to be like that is to be made like the Son of God. That description only fits an uncreated being that hath immortality. That's what it means to be the "Son of God."

John 6:68-69 KJV
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 20:28-29 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The word "blessed" means covered by his blood. That's the state we all need to be in.

But rosenritter, it also says in the Bible that we as one with them and we aren't God!

John 17

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Clete was right. As usual, you're wrong. You poor soul.

Knight was right when he said you are a moron.

LA

 

[Rosenritter]

Just stop being high and mighty.

How can you say Jesus is the creator when the Creator is sitting on the throne ---

Because it also tells us the name of who is sitting on that throne, and that his name is Jesus.

Revelation 21:5-6 KJV
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Are you with us so far? Oh, and there's more. What does the person who sits on the throne do? Look at Revelation 20. Isn't he the one whom the dead come before to be judged? Now think for a moment, who is the judge of the quick and the dead?

Acts 10:42 KJV
(42) And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Revelation 20:11-12 KJV
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The Creator is sitting on the Throne. It also says that Jesus is sitting on that Throne. It also tells us that the Creator was Jesus. I would be baffled at how you could deny the obvious here. You chose the subject for the challenge. Will you pay attention or just dust yourself off as if nothing happened?