Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

Crucible

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Well, the fact that he believes in a patriarchal society whereby women are allowed to cook and clean and not much else, his insipid diatribes against the fairer sex etc? C'mon GM. You've given him grief because of it!

:idunno:

^
Needs to appeal to women to avoid reproach :chuckle:

The ony thing women have done since their alleged 'equality' is produce a bunch of AB's, while 'evil patriarchy' is what made our civilization and philosophy.
That's the irony of the entire matter- Stockholm's syndrome at it's finest.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
^
Needs to appeal to women to avoid reproach :chuckle:

The biggest thing women have done since their alleged 'equality' is produce a bunch of AB's. That's the irony of the entire matter- putting someone above you and calling it equality :chuckle:

I think you'll find GM is a bloke you silly little crank.

Look dude, if you were dumped then it's hardly surprising but try and stop acting like a dumb little adolescent with a chip on his shoulder anyway?

:idea:
 

Lazy afternoon

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Ezekiel 14:14-20 KJV
(14) Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
(15) If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
(16) Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
(17) Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
(18) Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
(19) Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
(20) Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Thinking about it...

These verses describe a people as judgments being poured out.

Such shall be in out future also.



LA
 

TulipBee

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beloved57

Well-known member
God does not impose salvation on anyone.

If you want to be saved, then be a "whosoever" "Whosoever that shall call upon the Lord shall be saved" R0omans 10:13.

So you teach that men Christ died for, God sees them in Christ complete and perfect, wind up losing their perfection in Christ ! So you teach a saved perfect man in Christ can loose his salvation, and yet you criticize others who believe men lose their salvation, thats being a hypocrite !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
... I have yet to see the Calvinist ever prove, by scripture, that Adam did not have free will before or after the fall. Or that Cain and Abel did not have free will to choose as they would, not as they were programmed. Calvinism depends on assumptions never found in scripture from its inception.

From the text, it is a reasonable conclusion that when Adam chose the fruit that was forbidden, that he was exercising his will, and not that of another.

Invalid comments and rabbit trail !
 

marhig

Well-known member
All of that and only one scripture reference? And nothing about the Holy Spirit who is the Christians guide, teacher and keeper.

Once a person comes to Christ as a repentant sinner to be saved by him, he is sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and is eternally saved. Nothing can separate him from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35.

If you understood the Gospel you would understand that the Christian cannot lose his salvation. After the Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit God places him "In Christ",

"For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

Now answer this. If the Christian is hid with Christ in God, how can he lose his salvation?



He can't. Now, there are some that profess faith in Christ and fall away. These people never did really have faith in Christ, they were counterfeits. There are many counterfeits that when trials or persecutions come they fall away. But the true born again Christian, 1 Peter 1:23, cannot fall away no matter what comes.

Did King David lose his salvation when he sinned? Of course not. How about the apostle Paul who referred to himself as the "Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15. Does sin separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ? Paul said that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35.

Once sealed, always sealed. There is no unsealing in the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is God's mark of owner ship. Once you receive his mark you are eternally his. The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2. In the Gospel we are sanctified, justified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Maybe you should try to find out more about this Gospel so that you can teach according to the scriptures.

Firstly, without the holy spirit we are dead to God.

There is no way we are eternally saved just because we say we believe and are baptised. Once we repent, we are saved from our past sins, then we are to turn from sin. If we have the holy spirit he will be saving us and turning us from sin everyday, and it's up to us to listen and obey, if we obey God and live by his will then he keeps us secure. If we carry on living by the lusts of our flesh, and putting ourselves first then we're turning away from God and we will die in our sins.

"For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

Now answer this. If the Christian is hid with Christ in God, how can he lose his salvation?

Being hid with Christ in God means that Christ is in our hearts and he's living through us and you don't see us anymore. Our old life has gone and we are living in a new and living way in Christ and you see Christ in his people. You will know them by their fruits.

If we're truly risen with Christ, then we are dead to this world and this world and the works of it should mean nothing to us.

If we turn back to our life in the flesh and live to please ourselves then we die and we're not being saved.

Jesus clearly said, those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

We are to deny ourselves, bare our cross and follow Christ. Those who are not willing to bare their cross are not worthy of him.

Also, after what you have quoted in Colossians 3 there is this

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

If we have truly put on Christ, then we should be turning from sin.

Sin brings death

James 1

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

Romans 11

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 8

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We are to modify the deeds of the body to live. If we live after the flesh we shall die.

David suffered terribly for his sins, Paul persecuted Gods people before he was converted. You say nothing separates us from the love of God, well right through the Bible it clearly shows that sin does separate us from God, and I know we all sin, when we do things wrong then realise after, and we should be then going to God to say sorry, and if we've hurt anyone we should put it right. But we should be turning from wilful sinning, if we carry on living by the lusts of the flesh and wilfully sinning, we die.

2 Peter 2

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Once saved always saved is a false teaching!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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GM, you were the one who seemed to be spoiling for a fight yesterday. You were the one being all confrontational and insulting if you look back. I said I wasn't interested. Where it comes to Crucible are you saying he isn't a misogynist?!

The one acting all angry and bitter here is you, I'm sorry to say.

Well, I appreciate and accept your apology, AB. I thank you for being humble enough to admit when you're wrong. Thanks so much.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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:rotfl:
No it doesn't. Just the revisions of people with an agenda, like yourself.



Calvinism doesn't teach that God forces anyone, so there you go again beating that same old straw man. I don't really know what the problem is with you folk, seriously- just a bunch of professional false witnesses.

Well, first of all, you have no credibility with old GM. Secondly, Calvinism preaches that, God CHOSE before the foundation of the world who would be of the "Elect" and who would spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. (Hell) So, you're being deceitful by saying: "Calvinism doesn't teach that God forces anyone, so there you go again beating that same old straw man."

Your own Calvinist belief system exposes your attempt to deceive. Good try, though.
 

marhig

Well-known member
Marhig



Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10, and if being reconciled to God is not being saved, I don't know what is!

Being enemies we are reconciled to God, because our flesh is an enemy to God, but when we hear the gospel and believe and turn to God then we are reconciled to him through Christ Jesus, but we are saved by the life of Christ. As it says in Romans 5

Romans 5

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

If we truly follow Jesus, then we will live it out, and live by the will of God and not by the lusts of our flesh. And if the life of Christ isn't in our hearts through the spirit then we are dead in our sins and we're not saved in anyway.

Being reconciled doesn't mean we are eternally saved, we have freewill, and we can turn from God again.

There are many who profess to love God and say that they are saved, but live their lives to the contrary!

Romans 8

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Also, Jesus came and preached the gospel with the hope of saving all, not just a certain few!
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Firstly, without the holy spirit we are dead to God.

There is no way we are eternally saved just because we say we believe and are baptised. Once we repent, we are saved from our past sins, then we are to turn from sin. If we have the holy spirit he will be saving us and turning us from sin everyday, and it's up to us to listen and obey, if we obey God and live by his will then he keeps us secure. If we carry on living by the lusts of our flesh, and putting ourselves first then we're turning away from God and we will die in our sins.



Being hid with Christ in God means that Christ is in our hearts and he's living through us and you don't see us anymore. Our old life has gone and we are living in a new and living way in Christ and you see Christ in his people. You will know them by their fruits.

If we're truly risen with Christ, then we are dead to this world and this world and the works of it should mean nothing to us.

If we turn back to our life in the flesh and live to please ourselves then we die and we're not being saved.

Jesus clearly said, those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

We are to deny ourselves, bare our cross and follow Christ. Those who are not willing to bare their cross are not worthy of him.

Also, after what you have quoted in Colossians 3 there is this

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

If we have truly put on Christ, then we should be turning from sin.

Sin brings death

James 1

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

Romans 11

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 8

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We are to modify the deeds of the body to live. If we live after the flesh we shall die.

David suffered terribly for his sins, Paul persecuted Gods people before he was converted. You say nothing separates us from the love of God, well right through the Bible it clearly shows that sin does separate us from God, and I know we all sin, when we do things wrong then realise after, and we should be then going to God to say sorry, and if we've hurt anyone we should put it right. But we should be turning from wilful sinning, if we carry on living by the lusts of the flesh and wilfully sinning, we die.

2 Peter 2

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Once saved always saved is a false teaching!

It appears that your salvation is dependent upon your performance, which means that you may not be saved. It is no wonder that you are not secure in your salvation, you shouldn't be, because its all about you.

My performance counts for nothing. I am a sinner saved by grace. My salvation is at the right hand of God in heaven. I am saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, plus nothing. Good luck with your do-it-yourself salvation in the judgment.
 

Crucible

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Calvinism preaches that, God CHOSE before the foundation of the world who would be of the "Elect" and who would spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. (Hell) So, you're being deceitful by saying: "Calvinism doesn't teach that God forces anyone, so there you go again beating that same old straw man."


God chose the elect by His foreknowledge of those who ought and ought not be saved.
You're the one being deceitful, and at that, you people try to separate foreknowledge and predestination which is absurd: Predestination is God's preordained providence in which He brings the elect to and rejects others.

Your 'easy believism' doesn't do anything but lead a great many people to Hell, being little more than a liar's promise and you want to call the Calvinist God unjust :rolleyes:
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Being enemies we are reconciled to God, because our flesh is an enemy to God, but when we hear the gospel and believe and turn to God then we are reconciled to him through Christ Jesus, but we are saved by the life of Christ. As it says in Romans 5

Romans 5

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

If we truly follow Jesus, then we will live it out, and live by the will of God and not by the lusts of our flesh. And if the life of Christ isn't in our hearts through the spirit then we are dead in our sins and we're not saved in anyway.

Being reconciled doesn't mean we are eternally saved, we have freewill, and we can turn from God again.

There are many who profess to love God and say that they are saved, but live their lives to the contrary!

Romans 8

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Also, Jesus came and preached the gospel with the hope of saving all, not just a certain few!

Those that are reconciled to God are saved because they are in a right relationship with God, because Christ died for them. Now they are still going to be saved from the power and presence of sin, but they are not lost. It's a contradiction to say one is reconciled to God and lost in their sins at the same time.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Marhig

Being reconciled doesn't mean we are eternally saved, we have freewill, and we can turn from God again.

Who says being reconciled to God doesn't mean being eternally saved ? Show me the scripture that says that!
 

Angel4Truth

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Surely you're not going to brand everyone who would say they heard God or an angel and declare them as a lair, tricked, or insane? Paul heard the voice of an angel at one point, I seem to recall.


Lair?? I don't believe God is speaking audibly to people today.

Hebrews 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

And 1 Thessalonians 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Do you believe that last one has already happened? If not we shall certainly hear him audibly, all believers will.
 

Angel4Truth

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dont like goats that lie on tol

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Your use of scripture there is completely out of context, as romans 1:25 is speaking of creation itself pointing to Him, vs the world view that it all made itself and man worships the created instead of the Creator.

See what you snipped off in your zeal:

Romans 1:25

25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Does this deem you a goat since you used scripture in an incorrect way and lied about meaning?
 

Angel4Truth

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So, when Nang talks about witnessing to people like my nieces, who, if 'reprobate' then I would be effectively bringing burning coals down on their head by doing so would I?

Y

I think you fail to understand that concept, the heaping coals:

Proverbs 25:If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 For you will heap burning coals on his head, And the LORD will reward you.

Are they mocking you for being a believer while you are aiding them - or disdaining you and Him?

If not, your use is out of context.

Ever notice sometimes while being kind to someone who wants a fight with you, will enrage them also? Thats another context.
 

Angel4Truth

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My observation is that non-Calvinists are a lot more likely to condemn those who do not agree with them to the fires of Hell than Calvinists. We might think you are incorrect regarding predestination, but most would not hold that one's view is a matter of salvation. Couple of exceptions, but you should not judge the many by the few.

Ive seen many a Calvinist assert that the very doctrine of election the way they see it is the very gospel itself (b57 and nang here as well as a couple others that have come and gone here (as well as those i know in life offline) for example come to mind) both have declared me unsaved because i do not believe the Calvinist position that the gospel of salvation is only offered to some.

I agree all will not be saved, but because they refuse the offer that all men are offered. I believe God draws all, like it says He does and if He did not, then He would have told many lies and God does not lie.
 

Angel4Truth

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Of course we do. We just do not think "free will" means what you think it means. All men are free to choose according to their greatest inclinations when they so choose. The inclinations of the lost are wholly not inclined to the good (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14), therefore the lost will never freely choose to seek after God's righteousness until and if God first changes these inclinations (Eze. 36:26).

AMR

I fully agree, and where we differ us your word usage of if- there is no if, God draws us all, died for us all and offers salvation to all, He enables us to truth via the Spirit and we can then receive it, or reject it.
 
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