Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[ok doser]

Gee, you sound like a genius or something?

everybody's a genius on the internet! :banana:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The thread topic is: "Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?" The answer is, NO. I say no, because, the Calvinists have, over a few hundred years, changed the character and intent of the God of the Bible. The TRUE God isn't unjust, the Calvinist representation of God is. Their god picks and chooses who he will save and who he will send into eternal damnation.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

everybody's a genius on the internet! :banana:

Equal opportunity?

 

[Robert Pate]

One of the devil's biggest lies is your saved even if you sin. And you're going to heaven regardless. This isn't the truth. Sin brings death.

Once saved always saved is a false teaching.

God wants us to live right before him, and if we belong to him, then we will be living by his will. When Paul says that it's not the works, he's talking about doing things that make ourselves look good or to feed our lusts. Like when we take the glory when we do things for others. Or build ourselves up and let others say how good we are when the works are of God. Satisfying our flesh and thinking were good and holy, setting ourselves on a pedestal whilst looking down at others as sinners and unsaved. Judging them when we don't know their hearts.

I know me Robert, and without God I wouldn't live like I'm living now, he's completely changed my heart from selfish and putting me first, to putting God first and caring for others also. And I know it's not of myself, because without God I wouldn't do it, I can't overcome the flesh without him. So I glorify God and tell others that it's him not me. Because he's changed my life completely, and I know that without him I wouldn't care and I'd be living my life to the max in the flesh. Without God we're nothing, Satan has us like a boat without a rudder in the midst of the sea at night, whilst we are in darkness, he can pull us anyway he wants tossing and turning us by the lusts of our flesh.

Christ is our anchor, our rudder, our oar and our lighthouse in the dark. He's our light and our guide in this world of darkness, and if we belong to him, then we will be doing the good works of God, helping, caring, sharing, and loving all we come across with a godly love, whoever they are because the love of Christ will be in our heart.

By their fruits you will know them, not by their denomination. God is love, and all those who belong to him will be showing that love in their lives, doing things that others wouldn't do and you'll see God in them.

And sometimes people who don't know God, put many of those who profess to know God to shame, so I always have hope for everyone, and I remember Jesus and what he said about Nathanael, that he was watching him under the fig tree way before Nathanael was called, so we don't know who he has his eye on And it gives me hope for all that one day they will hear and they will listen to one of Gods true people when they say we have found the Christ, come and see.

And you'll know if they have truly found Christ, because they will be living it out.

The first will be last and the last will be first, it's better to be humble than proud and think we're ok and everyone else isn't, God loves every one of us, and he wants us all back. We are just to bring God to others, and he will do the judging. We should be saying is it I lord, and not it's all them and I'm ok. That's like the proud pharisee in the temple, looking down at the publican, yet the publicans house was more justified in the eyes of Christ than him, because he humbled himself and admitted he was a sinner.

We are all sinners and those who truly belong to God are saved by the grace of God through faith. Brought out from the world, walking in the spirit, denying their flesh and turning from sin, following Jesus our perfect example.

If we do the will of God, then we will be doing the works of God also.

John 21

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

All of that and only one scripture reference? And nothing about the Holy Spirit who is the Christians guide, teacher and keeper.

Once a person comes to Christ as a repentant sinner to be saved by him, he is sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and is eternally saved. Nothing can separate him from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35.

If you understood the Gospel you would understand that the Christian cannot lose his salvation. After the Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit God places him "In Christ",

"For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

Now answer this. If the Christian is hid with Christ in God, how can he lose his salvation?

He can't. Now, there are some that profess faith in Christ and fall away. These people never did really have faith in Christ, they were counterfeits. There are many counterfeits that when trials or persecutions come they fall away. But the true born again Christian, 1 Peter 1:23, cannot fall away no matter what comes.

Did King David lose his salvation when he sinned? Of course not. How about the apostle Paul who referred to himself as the "Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15. Does sin separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ? Paul said that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35.

Once sealed, always sealed. There is no unsealing in the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is God's mark of owner ship. Once you receive his mark you are eternally his. The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2. In the Gospel we are sanctified, justified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Maybe you should try to find out more about this Gospel so that you can teach according to the scriptures.

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert,

I pointed you to one of my many responses to the OP. It contains a reasoned explanation with additional pointers to yet a more thorough treatment of the matter of Adam's original sin. Rather than telling me what you think I have stated, how about you use exactly what I actually stated and try to draw the same conclusions. You cannot. Rather you continue to insist to instruct me about what I believe without taking the time to read exactly what I state I believe. Please interact with my own words in the post and its included pointer to my more detailed treatment of original sin if you really want to have a discussion.

Being made upright, Adam was not confirmed upright. Adam was made with the possibility of sinning. Therefore, no new inclination was introduced in order to "move" him to sin. Free agency chose to receive the error of the serpent and subsequently to partake of the forbidden fruit. There is nothing libertarian about this because God did not create Adam with a "necessity" to obey.

I would hope everyone agrees that Adam had moral ability. As per WCF 9.1, I am working with the definition of free will of Adam that "God hath endued the will of man with that natural ability, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil."

We are discussing how Adam, having freedom to do what is good (moral), nevertheless chose what is evil (moral). Adam had this ability, but was mutable; and because he was mutable—possessing the power to sin or not sin—he might fall. The answer therefore does not lie in philosophical theories as to the natural power of the will, for these only concern the power of the will to choose to act in accord with the determinate counsel of God, and do not pertain to the will towards good or evil in particular.

What these definitions do mean is that Adam could not have sinned unless he had the desire to sin. "Sin" is a moral relation. It is not an action in and of itself. "Desire to sin" is a relative value, not a physical quality. If a man has intercourse with a woman the action is not sin in itself. It the woman is his wife, it is good. If the woman is not his wife, it is evil. Eating from the tree was an action indifferent in itself. It became morally evil when God prohibited it. Hence the "sin" was not in the action, but in the prohibition. Philosophical necessity can explain why Adam might choose one action over another. It cannot explain why he would choose "sin" over "righteousness."

Therefore, the mutability and free-will of man is taken in conjunction with the false idea implanted in his mind by the Serpent, which now begins to serve as a satisfactory explanation (since the issue at hand is not philosophical, but theological). Any help or assistance possibly given to Adam by God can be bifurcated into
(1) The Power of Not sinning (which he always had, even in the moment of his first sin); and,
(2) The Efficacious grace, which was yet still undeserved, which served as an action or efficacious motion to good.

Thus, when this actual motion to good was withheld, and man was[FONT=&]—[/FONT]though retaining his ability not to sin[FONT=&]—[/FONT]left to his own mutability, Adam willingly succumbed most freely to the false idea of the Devil, without receiving any impelling action or motion from God toward a new inclination. Theologically speaking, we are able to prevent God from being the author or "incliner" of man's sin: God has not given to Adam some new desire, God has not taken away Adam's liberty to not sin, and so on.

No mystery is required to explain how an upright man, Adam, became a sinner. It lies in the fact that the upright man was yet to be confirmed in his uprightness. The probation was set before him on the understanding that man was mutable and could sin. His nature therefore possessed the possibility of sinning. The first man is of the earth, earthy. He already had an earthy nature. Eating the forbidden fruit involved choosing earthly happiness at the expense of heavenly fellowship with God, something which his mutably upright, yet earthly nature, was quite capable of doing by itself without any secondary influence from God.

Man is created with moral quality (reasonable and immortal souls), moral ability (having the law of God written in their hearts), and moral liberty (being left to the liberty of their own will). This is what makes man a capable moral agent, and as such is morally culpable for his actions.

AMR

Another smoke screen. From what I understand about what you have said, GOD CREATED A SINNER. Therefore God is responsible for Adam's sin. The truth is that God created Adam as innocent, not as a sinner. Adam by his own free will chose to sin against God. To be truly human is to have a free will. God did not create a robot. Adam could make choices. Adam did not lose his free will in the fall. What he lost was his relationship with God.

 

[Crucible]

The TRUE God isn't unjust, the Calvinist representation of God is. Their god picks and chooses who he will save and who he will send into eternal damnation.

Answer this question:

If God foreknew the fate of mankind, and He determines beforehand how He will conduct His will and presence to man, then how does He not predetermine the elect?

Calvinist theology checkmates false doctrine hombre, as that was the sole intent of the Reformation- to undo inconsistent, semi-Pelagian heresy such as what you perpetuate. He brought back to the Augustinian belief of God's immutability, which was the Christianity before the thousands of sects today.

I think it's hilarious how you call Calvinism false, when Calvin's intent was to show how false you all are- with facts :wave:

 

[Rosenritter]

All of that and only one scripture reference? And nothing about the Holy Spirit who is the Christians guide, teacher and keeper.

Once a person comes to Christ as a repentant sinner to be saved by him, he is sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 and is eternally saved. Nothing can separate him from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35.

If you understood the Gospel you would understand that the Christian cannot lose his salvation. After the Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit God places him "In Christ",

"For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

Now answer this. If the Christian is hid with Christ in God, how can he lose his salvation?

He can't. Now, there are some that profess faith in Christ and fall away. These people never did really have faith in Christ, they were counterfeits. There are many counterfeits that when trials or persecutions come they fall away. But the true born again Christian, 1 Peter 1:23, cannot fall away no matter what comes.

Did King David lose his salvation when he sinned? Of course not. How about the apostle Paul who referred to himself as the "Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15. Does sin separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ? Paul said that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35.

Once sealed, always sealed. There is no unsealing in the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is God's mark of owner ship. Once you receive his mark you are eternally his. The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2. In the Gospel we are sanctified, justified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Maybe you should try to find out more about this Gospel so that you can teach according to the scriptures.

Since you mentioned David, he seems to speak against what you just said.

Psa 51:10-12 KJV
(10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
(12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Rom 8:9 KJV
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

... if God had taken his spirit away from David, that would mean that he was none of his. David recognized this as the possibility for unforgiven sin.

Paul also seems to disagree with you.

1Co 9:26-27 KJV
(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So does Jesus.

Luk 9:62 KJV
(62) And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Not to mention God hath said in Ezekiel a few times...

Eze 18:23-24 KJV
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Did I mention Jesus yet? Not sure. Just in case....

Mat 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I understand that you may mean well, but you are mistaken in this. There's plenty of clear passages that confirm this topic. Jesus himself said that we can be forgiven, and if we do not learn the meaning of that mercy and apply it to others that forgiveness can be taken away.

 

[beloved57]

Another smoke screen. From what I understand about what you have said, GOD CREATED A SINNER. Therefore God is responsible for Adam's sin. The truth is that God created Adam as innocent, not as a sinner. Adam by his own free will chose to sin against God. To be truly human is to have a free will. God did not create a robot. Adam could make choices. Adam did not lose his free will in the fall. What he lost was his relationship with God.

False statements not found in scripture!

 

[beloved57]

Marhig

One of the devil's biggest lies is your saved even if you sin.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10, and if being reconciled to God is not being saved, I don't know what is!

 

[beloved57]

Pate

If you understood the Gospel you would understand that the Christian cannot lose his salvation. After the Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit God places him "In Christ",

You teach that men loose their salvation all the time. You have posted many times that God sees all humanity in Christ, but that they still wind up lost in their sins out of Christ. That is losing salvation.

 

[Robert Pate]

Since you mentioned David, he seems to speak against what you just said.

Psa 51:10-12 KJV
(10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
(12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Rom 8:9 KJV
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

... if God had taken his spirit away from David, that would mean that he was none of his. David recognized this as the possibility for unforgiven sin.

Paul also seems to disagree with you.

1Co 9:26-27 KJV
(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So does Jesus.

Luk 9:62 KJV
(62) And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Not to mention God hath said in Ezekiel a few times...

Eze 18:23-24 KJV
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Did I mention Jesus yet? Not sure. Just in case....

Mat 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I understand that you may mean well, but you are mistaken in this. There's plenty of clear passages that confirm this topic. Jesus himself said that we can be forgiven, and if we do not learn the meaning of that mercy and apply it to others that forgiveness can be taken away.

Nothing can ever be taken away. There is no unsealing of the Holy Spirit. You lack assurance of your salvation. The Holy Spirit keeps us until the return of Christ, 1 Corinthians 15:52. You will never be an effective Christian if you think that you can lose your salvation,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Jesus Christ unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

Its all of God from the beginning to the end.

 

[patrick jane]

False statements not found in scripture!

Pate is right, you are wrong

 

[Robert Pate]

Pate



You teach that men loose their salvation all the time. You have posted many times that God sees all humanity in Christ, but that they still wind up lost in their sins out of Christ. That is losing salvation.

God does not impose salvation on anyone.

If you want to be saved, then be a "whosoever" "Whosoever that shall call upon the Lord shall be saved" R0omans 10:13.

 

[Rosenritter]

Nothing can ever be taken away. There is no unsealing of the Holy Spirit. You lack assurance of your salvation. The Holy Spirit keeps us until the return of Christ, 1 Corinthians 15:52. You will never be an effective Christian if you think that you can lose your salvation,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Jesus Christ unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

Its all of God from the beginning to the end.

Care to reply to any of that compilation of scripture I used for support then?

 

[Rosenritter]

False statements not found in scripture!

... I have yet to see the Calvinist ever prove, by scripture, that Adam did not have free will before or after the fall. Or that Cain and Abel did not have free will to choose as they would, not as they were programmed. Calvinism depends on assumptions never found in scripture from its inception.

From the text, it is a reasonable conclusion that when Adam chose the fruit that was forbidden, that he was exercising his will, and not that of another.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

... I have yet to see the Calvinist ever prove, by scripture, that Adam did not have free will before or after the fall. Or that Cain and Abel did not have free will to choose as they would, not as they were programmed. Calvinism depends on assumptions never found in scripture from its inception.

From the text, it is a reasonable conclusion that when Adam chose the fruit that was forbidden, that he was exercising his will, and not that of another.

I agree with you.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Answer this question:

If God foreknew the fate of mankind, and He determines beforehand how He will conduct His will and presence to man, then how does He not predetermine the elect?

Calvinist theology checkmates false doctrine hombre, as that was the sole intent of the Reformation- to undo inconsistent, semi-Pelagian heresy such as what you perpetuate. He brought back to the Augustinian belief of God's immutability, which was the Christianity before the thousands of sects today.

I think it's hilarious how you call Calvinism false, when Calvin's intent was to show how false you all are- with facts :wave:

First of all, history records Calvin as an evil, wicked, and sadistic TYRANT in the first degree. So, I dismiss anything and everything he had to say. Secondly, I believe God does have full knowledge of what will occur at any given time. However, He created humanity with a free will. He doesn't force anyone to place their faith in Him or the free gift of eternal life that He offers all of us through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. :wave:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Another smoke screen. From what I understand about what you have said, GOD CREATED A SINNER.

Again you just assume versus examine. Nowhere have I stated this about Adam. He was created upright, yet mutable, able to sin or not to sin.

Like I said, you have yet to provide anything resembling a substantive response to my post that started this discussion between us. I will continue to remind you of this plain fact in evidence until you do so or just concede my complaint by waving me off with the usual anti-Calvinist canards.

AMR

 

[Crucible]

First of all, history records Calvin as an evil, wicked, and sadistic TYRANT in the first degree.

:rotfl:
No it doesn't. Just the revisions of people with an agenda, like yourself.

He doesn't force anyone to place their faith in Him or the free gift of eternal life that He offers all of us through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Calvinism doesn't teach that God forces anyone, so there you go again beating that same old straw man. I don't really know what the problem is with you folk, seriously- just a bunch of professional false witnesses.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You sure are an angry kinda guy. What made you so bitter?

GM, you were the one who seemed to be spoiling for a fight yesterday. You were the one being all confrontational and insulting if you look back. I said I wasn't interested. Where it comes to Crucible are you saying he isn't a misogynist?!

The one acting all angry and bitter here is you, I'm sorry to say.