Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Robert Pate]

Your words will be judged soon . . You should be more careful what you say.



There are no innocent people. Not one. Romans 3:9-20



All men are born FROM Adam and inherit the human nature he corrupted through his disobedience.

All persons reading, should do a study of Total Depravity and/or read "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther.

I have read that. It does not teach that men cannot hear and believe the Gospel.

It is not man's fault that he is a sinner, its Adam's fault, he is the one that brought sin upon us. God would be unjust if he sent people to hell because they are sinners. People will go to hell for unbelief and rejecting Christ, not sins. Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2.

 

[Robert Pate]

I have always found you interesting, how you get things like this totally correct, and then get other things absolutely wrong.

You have the same problem as the Calvinist. You see everything through your Catholic religion. I see everything through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Unfortunately, you attempt to speak about and define "love" apart from acknowledging God as Sovereign.

God is love and God is Sovereign . . so "love" must be defined within these parameters.

One cannot hope to know or talk about "love" while exhibiting anger and enmity against the God of love. You prove to be off track and functioning faithlessly.

Anyone who loves God, is given faith to believe in His righteous love; especially revealed in the sacrifice of the life of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Out of love for multitudes, Christ died for their sin.

You are just bitter because salvation is not universal. You dare to say God does not love because He should love all indiscriminately. You think your definition of "love" is better than God's. :nono:

Romans 9:20

Nang, any doctrine that says there's a God who creates people with the express intent of creating them to be damned to suffering has no love in it whatsoever. I don't happen to be bitter about anything Nang as I don't believe such a vile belief system is remotely true to start with.

 

[Nang]

Nang, any doctrine that says there's a God who creates people with the express intent of creating them to be damned to suffering has no love in it whatsoever. I don't happen to be bitter about anything Nang as I don't believe such a vile belief system is remotely true to start with.

The only alternative to God creating as He did, knowing that those created in His image would fall short of His Godly glory . . being creatures and not Gods . . would have been for God to not create at all.

Which would mean you and your family would never have existed at all.

Would denying you a being and life altogether, have been more loving of God?

Or is ridding creation of all that is destructive, wicked, unjust, sinful and ungodly, for the sake of many made righteous, not just? Does not justice bring glory to both God and man?

Why do you only find fault, instead of hoping for the good?

The Holy Scriptures are replete with wonderful and salvific promises, ratified and sealed and guaranteed by God Himself . . why not cast your human lot upon these, by telling your family about what God has worked for good, rather than living in discouragement to what has been worked and brought about by bad seed?

Are you blaming unbelief harbored by anyone, including those you love, on God? Why?

When you clearly see the evil brought about by unbelieving men, who deserve everlasting justice . .
why shake your fist at God for dispensing justice to put them away forever and ever?

It is our human duty to align our emotions, intellects, will, and actions with the good purposes and powers of God Almighty. Only then do we discover the depths of the love of God.

 

[Arthur Brain]

The only alternative to God creating as He did, knowing that those created in His image would fall short of His Godly glory . . being creatures and not Gods . . would have been for God to not create at all.

Which would mean you and your family would never have existed at all.

Would denying you a being and life altogether, have been more loving of God?

Or is ridding creation of all that is destructive, wicked, unjust, sinful and ungodly, for the sake of many made righteous, not just? Does not justice bring glory to both God and man?

Why do you only find fault, instead of hoping for the good?

The Holy Scriptures are replete with wonderful and salvific promises, ratified and sealed and guaranteed by God Himself . . why not cast your human lot upon these, by telling your family about what God has worked for good, rather than living in discouragement to what has been worked and brought about by bad seed?

Are you blaming unbelief harbored by anyone, including those you love, on God? Why?

When you clearly see the evil brought about by unbelieving men, who deserve everlasting justice . .
why shake your fist at God for dispensing justice to put them away forever and ever?

It is our human duty to align our emotions, intellects, will, and actions with the good purposes and powers of God Almighty. Only then do we discover the depths of the love of God.

Nang, you're no better than those who you cast off as 'reprobate'. If my nieces fall under that latter label then your beloved Calvinism dictates that it was preordained and they'd be incapable of belief as per God's decree. That isn't love. It's the complete antithesis of it.

 

[Robert Pate]

The only alternative to God creating as He did, knowing that those created in His image would fall short of His Godly glory . . being creatures and not Gods . . would have been for God to not create at all.

Which would mean you and your family would never have existed at all.

Would denying you a being and life altogether, have been more loving of God?

Or is ridding creation of all that is destructive, wicked, unjust, sinful and ungodly, for the sake of many made righteous, not just? Does not justice bring glory to both God and man?

Why do you only find fault, instead of hoping for the good?

The Holy Scriptures are replete with wonderful and salvific promises, ratified and sealed and guaranteed by God Himself . . why not cast your human lot upon these, by telling your family about what God has worked for good, rather than living in discouragement to what has been worked and brought about by bad seed?

Are you blaming unbelief harbored by anyone, including those you love, on God? Why?

When you clearly see the evil brought about by unbelieving men, who deserve everlasting justice . .
why shake your fist at God for dispensing justice to put them away forever and ever?

It is our human duty to align our emotions, intellects, will, and actions with the good purposes and powers of God Almighty. Only then do we discover the depths of the love of God.

You poor blind fool.

You have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

In Jesus Christ you have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

You reject all of that and want to be saved some other way. There is no other way.

 

[Nang]

Nang, you're no better than those who you cast off as 'reprobate'. If my nieces fall under that latter label then your beloved Calvinism dictates that it was preordained and they'd be incapable of belief as per God's decree. That isn't love. It's the complete antithesis of it.

Sinners cannot believe unto salvation.

The Gospel message begins with declaring this Truth.

Only God's grace and forgiveness in the cross of Jesus Christ can bring necessary faith and remedy.

All the rest of our discussion is white noise, meant to distract from what you refuse to face.

I do not cast anyone off as reprobate, because I do not know who God might regenerate to new life tonight!

Faith is the act of trusting God to bless those we love and pray for. If you do not love God enough to rest in His righteous purposes and powers, and pray His saving grace for others, then so be it . . but do not tell me that I am believing or teaching apart from His Sovereign love.

 

[Nang]

You poor blind fool.

You have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

In Jesus Christ you have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

You reject all of that and want to be saved some other way. There is no other way.

It appears you are missing a few cognitive nuts and bolts . .

:dead:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Sinners cannot believe unto salvation.

The Gospel message begins with declaring this Truth.

Only God's grace and forgiveness in the cross of Jesus Christ can bring necessary faith and remedy.

All the rest of our discussion is white noise, meant to distract from what you refuse to face.

I do not cast anyone off as reprobate, because I do not know who God might regenerate to new life tonight!

Faith is the act of trusting God to bless those we love and pray for. If you do not love God enough to rest in His righteous purposes and powers, and pray His saving grace for others, then so be it . . but do not tell me that I am believing or teaching apart from His Sovereign love.

Yes you do Nang. You believe anyone not 'regenerated' is cast off. Those not as fortunate as yourself to be picked. Which could be anyone including my family and friends. People you're no better than.

 

[beloved57]

HOGWASH!

We can no more become sinners than we can become righteous. Both sin and righteousness are completely outside of us.

Paul refutes you.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world" Did you get that?

"And death by sin; and so death passed upon all men" Did you get that?

"For that all have sinned" And will continue to sin, because they are infected with it.

Romans 5:12.

Its all very simple, Adam brings sin and death. Christ brings righteousness and eternal life, Romans 5:18.

You teach salvation by works, by what sinful man does. I dont care how many scriptures you quote ! You teach that sinners Christ died for wind up lost anyway, thats an attack on His blood, a belittlement of it !

 

[Nang]

Yes you do Nang. You believe anyone not 'regenerated' is cast off. Those not as fortunate as yourself to be picked. Which could be anyone including my family and friends. People you're no better than.

AB . . .

All is not over yet!

Your entire family could be converted with a bolt of divine light tonight, for all I know.

I hope.

You despair.

Why?

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB . . .

All is not over yet!

Your entire family could be converted with a bolt of divine light tonight, for all I know.

I hope.

You despair.

Why?

What makes you think I'm despairing? I think your doctrine is vile and appalling, furthermore I don't believe it to be true as it makes God to be a monster who may as well play dice with his creations. Some people's families would have to be part of the 'reprobate' under your system while lucky ones like yourself are spared from the fate you're quite happy to see others suffer, even though you're absolutely no better a person yourself.

Clear now?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

HOGWASH!

We can no more become sinners than we can become righteous. Both sin and righteousness are completely outside of us.

Paul refutes you.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world" Did you get that?

"And death by sin; and so death passed upon all men" Did you get that?

"For that all have sinned" And will continue to sin, because they are infected with it.

Romans 5:12.

Its all very simple, Adam brings sin and death. Christ brings righteousness and eternal life, Romans 5:18.

Try not using Paul to imply he was, or the Holy Spirit superintending him as he wrote, as double-minded as you are, Robert. Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:32-34, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Ephesians 5:25-27, Colossians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 Timothy 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:4-6. The "us" "we", etc., in these passages is not each and every human being else all would be saved. You want to make Our Lord's work a potentiality versus an actuality for all those given to Him.

Then again, you do believe the Bible to be a book full of errors written by men, so what you declare as the teachings of Scripture requires you to first demonstrate how a book so full of errors is determined to be correct here and there.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

It is not man's fault that he is a sinner, its Adam's fault, he is the one that brought sin upon us. God would be unjust if he sent people to hell because they are sinners. .

So those in Hell are not sinners? Got it. :AMR1:

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You poor blind fool.

You have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

In Jesus Christ you have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

If all are reconciled, justified, sanctified, and redeemed, all are saved. :AMR:

No, what you really mean all are potentially reconciled, justified, sanctified, and redeemed if they will only hear with spiritual ears you claim they all possess. Why not at least be accurate abut your real views when you make these broad characterizations? You don't because when you do, you are forced to admit that since you believe that all have the ability choose wisely, but not all do, then some must be more wise than others.

Somewhere in all of that illogic you will—to overcome the obvious objections to making God a debtor to man and giving man reasons to boast—I hope eventually come to realize that unless God first acts upon the spiritually deaf (regeneration), they will never, ever, choose God's righteousness. Once you do, you will be on the right path, Robert.

AMR

 

[Lazy afternoon]

If all are reconciled, justified, sanctified, and redeemed, all are saved. :AMR:

No, what you really mean all are potentially reconciled, justified, sanctified, and redeemed if they will only hear with spiritual ears you claim they all possess. Why not at least be accurate abut your real views when you make these broad characterizations? You don't because when you do, you are forced to admit that since you believe that all have the ability choose wisely, but not all do, then some must be more wise than others.

Somewhere in all of that illogic you will—to overcome the obvious objections to making God a debtor to man and giving man reasons to boast—I hope eventually come to realize that unless God first acts upon the spiritually deaf (regeneration), they will never, ever, choose God's righteousness. Once you do, you will be on the right path, Robert.

AMR

That is not the full story.

Men persuade God by love.

LA

 

[popsthebuilder]

It's not your fault. Or, is it? I don't know, you tell me?

Initially my not getting your humor addressed to me directly would have been more your fault initially as you wrote in a similar manner as you would to any other who was familiar with your general tone, which I was not. Yet now, to be honest, for me to continually miss it in similar manner to how I had initially, would be more my own fault, as my dealings with you have become more regular or frequent, one could only hope that they can grasp, at least, the basic character traits that another generally emanates.

Too much?

Peace

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[popsthebuilder]

The only alternative to God creating as He did, knowing that those created in His image would fall short of His Godly glory . . being creatures and not Gods . . would have been for God to not create at all.

Which would mean you and your family would never have existed at all.

Would denying you a being and life altogether, have been more loving of God?

Or is ridding creation of all that is destructive, wicked, unjust, sinful and ungodly, for the sake of many made righteous, not just? Does not justice bring glory to both God and man?

Why do you only find fault, instead of hoping for the good?

The Holy Scriptures are replete with wonderful and salvific promises, ratified and sealed and guaranteed by God Himself . . why not cast your human lot upon these, by telling your family about what God has worked for good, rather than living in discouragement to what has been worked and brought about by bad seed?

Are you blaming unbelief harbored by anyone, including those you love, on God? Why?

When you clearly see the evil brought about by unbelieving men, who deserve everlasting justice . .
why shake your fist at God for dispensing justice to put them away forever and ever?

It is our human duty to align our emotions, intellects, will, and actions with the good purposes and powers of God Almighty. Only then do we discover the depths of the love of God.

Nang, I mean no disrespect, nor do I mean to cause contention.

I feel compelled to point something out though.

You asked if non existence, as in to never have existed, would be more loving than eternal torment. The obvious answer is yes. Perhaps not so easy for you to see why.

Let's take the scenario of the innocent infant; let's say this infant is taken out of this physical life. Let's say this infant barely even knew it's own mother, let alone real greed. Say this baby lived outside the womb about a week prior to the circumstance that ended it's physical life. This baby will now be submitted to indescribably terrible amounts of anguish and agony. Not for a minute, not for an hour, day or even the equivalence in length to its innocent physical life.... A week, but for all eternity.

Now; from that infants perspective; can you say it would have preferred it's week of physical life and eternal unbearable pain and torment, or to have never existed physically at all?

I'm not trying to belittle your perspective or faith by any means, and please don't think this an attack, it is not.

I just needed to point it out. If I am mistaken or confused then please correct me. If you actually find eternal torment the better option, then please attempt to explain how.

Peace

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[Rosenritter]

I can almost excuse you for the ignorance that you display. In fact, I think I will. After all, you're a Lutheran. Lutherans allow women Ministers to rule over their church. That's against Paul's admonition in the Bible.

1. Didn't say I was Lutheran. If you spent half the time reading as you did typing (which doesn't seem to be that long either) you might benefit. I'll excuse your ignorance if you make an effort to improve.

2. You did not even attempt to define what it is you say that must be believed. That seems quite hypocritical. Now that's against Christ's admonition in the Bible.

 

[Rosenritter]

So, you believe that a soul can be utterly destroyed, huh? Back up your assertion with Scripture. Also, stay off of that LA Freeway, it's congested with false doctrine and confusion.

Leviticus 23:30 KJV
(30) And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

Psalms 40:14 KJV
(14) Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Matthew 10:28 KJV
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Grosnick, how many times do you need to be proven flat-out wrong before you'll apologize and/or consider that maybe you should be willing to go back to scripture instead of spouting off whatever pops to the front of your mind? That's a rhetorical question. The correct answer for anyone is "once" but I'm predicting your answer is "never." Prove me wrong and choose a positive integer please.