Does anyone know why Punisher1984 was banned yesterday?

[HappyCetacean]

Wow. For a drunk chick you certainly can philosophise with the best of them ...


Oh. So you don't deny Christ, you just think He was a perennial liar.

Yeah, people have told me that before. I philosophize the most when I am almost out of it. But I also produce posts like this that make sense when I am writing them, but maybe not so much when I re-read them the next day:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52939


As for Christ, why would I think he was a liar? He was probably a real human, an itinerant preacher who taught people some good things, and then was crucified by the Roman authorities because he was considered a troublemaker. Then his little band of followers did some good marketing and good mythologizing by incorporating currently existing stories into the the mythology of Jesus. They spread these stories to others as an inclusive group that emphasized fellowship, love, and treating others well. And it takes off from there.

So no, I don't think Jesus was a liar, but maybe his followers were a little bendy with the truth, like most good marketers are. Eventually those little tales grew into dogma, orthodoxy, and our modern Christian religious tradition that requires one to believe that a guy was born from a virgin mother, and after being killed, was resurrected, and flew up to heaven to be with his father, who was God and also himself.

Do you think a rational person would buy into this stuff if they had not been indoctrinated into this belief when they were younger and did not have all of their higher mental faculties developed yet?

I find it hard to believe.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Yeah, people have told me that before. I philosophize the most when I am almost out of it. But I also produce posts like this that make sense when I am writing them, but maybe not so much when I re-read them the next day:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52939


As for Christ, why would I think he was a liar? He was probably a real human, an itinerant preacher who taught people some good things, and then was crucified by the Roman authorities because he was considered a troublemaker. Then his little band of followers did some good marketing and good mythologizing by incorporating currently existing stories into the the mythology of Jesus. They spread these stories to others as an inclusive group that emphasized fellowship, love, and treating others well. And it takes off from there.

So no, I don't think Jesus was a liar, but maybe his followers were a little bendy with the truth, like most good marketers are. Eventually those little tales grew into dogma, orthodoxy, and our modern Christian religious tradition that requires one to believe that a guy was born from a virgin mother, and after being killed, was resurrected, and flew up to heaven to be with his father, who was God and also himself.

Do you think a rational person would buy into this stuff if they had not been indoctrinated into this belief when they were younger and did not have all of their higher mental faculties developed yet?

I find it hard to believe.

It could almost makes sense until you realize that the followers believed what they were saying so much that they gladly accepted horrible deaths rather than say Jesus was just a man they followed.

 

[Nick M]

Why would I want to deny Christ? What does that question mean? I can nominally agree that Christ was a historical human who lived on this planet about 2000 years ago. I deny that he was the son of god, or god himself, or that he was resurrected three days after being dead via crucifixtion.

So. Who rolled away the stone?

 

[HappyCetacean]

It could almost makes sense until you realize that the followers believed what they were saying so much that they gladly accepted horrible deaths rather than say Jesus was just a man they followed.

Pointing this out does not make your case more compelling.

We have seen similar before, haven't we?

Jim Jones and the Guyana Tragedy back in 1978:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Heaven's Gate back in 1997:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult)


Heck, we've seen this type of inanity all throughout history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_suicide


* sorry for using wikipedia, but it was quick and dirty

 

[Nick M]

Pointing this out does not make your case more compelling.

We have seen similar before, haven't we?

Jim Jones and the Guyana Tragedy back in 1978:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Heaven's Gate back in 1997:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult)


Heck, we've seen this type of inanity all throughout history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_suicide


* sorry for using wikipedia, but it was quick and dirty

Are you sure you want to compare God to people like you from heavens gate? I thought you didn't want to get banned.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Pointing this out does not make your case more compelling.

We have seen similar before, haven't we?

Jim Jones and the Guyana Tragedy back in 1978:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Heaven's Gate back in 1997:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult)


Heck, we've seen this type of inanity all throughout history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_suicide


* sorry for using wikipedia, but it was quick and dirty

(don't apologize for using wikipedia, it is a good starting place)

Your examples do not apply because the people I am talking about all died individually and isolated from the community under a lot of pressure (including torture) to recant their testimonies and not one of them did.
That is different from mass suicide where people follow a crowd into death because the peer pressure and mob mentality aspects are missing.

 

[HappyCetacean]

(don't apologize for using wikipedia, it is a good starting place)

Your examples do not apply because the people I am talking about all died individually and isolated from the community under a lot of pressure (including torture) to recant their testimonies and not one of them did.
That is different from mass suicide where people follow a crowd into death because the peer pressure and mob mentality aspects are missing.

You are right. I will have to look into why Jesus's followers would chose death over recanting their faith. It is an interesting aspect to the story of the early Church. What are your thoughts on this? And do realize you are talking to an unrepentent atheist, but someone who also attended Catholic school when younger, so keep it light on the bible verses and more on straight out prose.

- HC

 

[HappyCetacean]

Are you sure you want to compare God to people like you from heavens gate? I thought you didn't want to get banned.

What? I was only giving examples of mass suicides and trying to equate that as an explanation to why earlier disciples of Jesus chose death over recanting. Why would I get banned for this?

If I get banned for using my mind to question and understand something I may not be knowledgeable about, then I would not be impressed with the quality of the debate on this forum.

I joined this forum after reading the tagline "open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed".

- HC

p.s. I am not from Heaven's Gate

 

[Stripe]

Yeah, people have told me that before. I philosophize the most when I am almost out of it. But I also produce posts like this that make sense when I am writing them, but maybe not so much when I re-read them the next day:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52939


As for Christ, why would I think he was a liar? He was probably a real human, an itinerant preacher who taught people some good things, and then was crucified by the Roman authorities because he was considered a troublemaker. Then his little band of followers did some good marketing and good mythologizing by incorporating currently existing stories into the the mythology of Jesus. They spread these stories to others as an inclusive group that emphasized fellowship, love, and treating others well. And it takes off from there.

So no, I don't think Jesus was a liar, but maybe his followers were a little bendy with the truth, like most good marketers are. Eventually those little tales grew into dogma, orthodoxy, and our modern Christian religious tradition that requires one to believe that a guy was born from a virgin mother, and after being killed, was resurrected, and flew up to heaven to be with his father, who was God and also himself.

Do you think a rational person would buy into this stuff if they had not been indoctrinated into this belief when they were younger and did not have all of their higher mental faculties developed yet?

I find it hard to believe.

Oh. So you don't think Jesus was a liar you just think thousands of other people were liars in a great global conspiracy spanning a few thousand years....

We've got a rare one here, folks. :kook:

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are right. I will have to look into why Jesus's followers would chose death over recanting their faith. It is an interesting aspect to the story of the early Church. What are your thoughts on this? And do realize you are talking to an unrepentent atheist, but someone who also attended Catholic school when younger, so keep it light on the bible verses and more on straight out prose.

- HC

Most of the apostles lived with Jesus for over 3 years and saw a lot more than just a few miracles like feeding thousands of people with two fish and a few loaves of bread.
On the morning before Jesus was nailed to the cross, Peter was so afraid he denied knowing Jesus three times.
Seven weeks later was Pentecost and Peter went boldly proclaiming Jesus to everyone in hearing.
From that time on, Peter showed no fear and suffered imprisonment and beatings with gladness.
When Peter was being put to death, he demanded to be crucified upside down because he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner Jesus was.

Something happened to Peter between the time of Jesus being crucified and Pentecost.
Peter saw and talked to Jesus after Jesus died, along with a lot of other people.
Peter received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, along with a lot of other people.

Those two events changed Peter.

 

[griffinsavard]

What's up with that?

I don't know what took so long? :rotfl:

 

[HappyCetacean]

Oh. So you don't think Jesus was a liar you just think thousands of other people were liars in a great global conspiracy spanning a few thousand years....

We've got a rare one here, folks. :kook:

Mass delusion, maybe?

 

[Frank Ernest]

Mass delusion, maybe?

How many atheists does one need in order to consider them a "mass?":chuckle:

 

[Count Iblis]

It could almost makes sense until you realize that the followers believed what they were saying so much that they gladly accepted horrible deaths rather than say Jesus was just a man they followed.

What evidence do you have that

1) They suffered horrible deaths?
2) They thought Jesus was more than a man?
3) They didn't recant?
4) They were killed for being Christians?

 

[Count Iblis]

So. Who rolled away the stone?

If Jesus was real and was crucified then there most likely was no grave. They generally weren't given decent burials. Instead their corpses were left on the crosses for bird food. What remained would then be tossed in the garbage dump.

 

[Count Iblis]

Oh. So you don't think Jesus was a liar you just think thousands of other people were liars in a great global conspiracy spanning a few thousand years....

We've got a rare one here, folks. :kook:

Who are these thousands of people you mention? I didn't realize that there were thousands of eyewitness reports of Jesus. Where can I find them? I've been looking for over a decade and haven't been able to find even one.

 

[Count Iblis]

Seven weeks later was Pentecost and Peter went boldly proclaiming Jesus to everyone in hearing.
From that time on, Peter showed no fear and suffered imprisonment and beatings with gladness.
When Peter was being put to death, he demanded to be crucified upside down because he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner Jesus was.

Where'd you read all this?

 

[Count Iblis]

If I get banned for using my mind to question and understand something I may not be knowledgeable about, then I would not be impressed with the quality of the debate on this forum.

You can get banned around here for disagreeing with a moderator's opinion.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You can get banned around here for disagreeing with a moderator's opinion.

That's true. Got a problem with that?

 

[Nick M]

If Jesus was real and was crucified then there most likely was no grave. They generally weren't given decent burials. Instead their corpses were left on the crosses for bird food. What remained would then be tossed in the garbage dump.

Who rolled away the stone is the name of a book written by an atheist. Feel free to read it sometime.

He was put in a man named Joseph's tomb. He asked for the body.


From the good news according to Matthew.

Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him. When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed. And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the tomb.
Pilate Sets a Guard

On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.

Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Which begs the question, who rolled away the stone. I left out what the Bible says happened, because you don't believe it. The historian Josephus reported on these events, as I have shown you. The missing piece is up to you. Becareful with Josephus, there are interpolations in his writing. They are kind of obvious to people that study his writing. To me that sounds like it was done to discredit his writing.

Now answer the million dollar question with some sort of evidence.