dodge
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STP, I get emotional when I see folks remove Jesus from His own teachings by placing way to much emphasis on Paul and not on who Paul pointed everyone he witnessed for and who he directed them to.
ECT Do those who believe MAD have no problem disregarding what Jesus actually taught ?
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STP, I get emotional when I see folks remove Jesus from His own teachings by placing way to much emphasis on Paul and not on who Paul pointed everyone he witnessed for and who he directed them to.
dodge
New member
You impose your understanding on the verse and make it say what is not in the verse that is not keeping the context. Far from it.
ALL Israel first, then the Gentiles.
And BOTH of those are AN aspect within that PROPHESIED aspect of what was ONLY LATER revealed was ONLY ONE aspect of TWO, within God's TWO-Fold Purpose: Prophecy AND Mystery.
Some Mads forget that when talking about it to others.
But Mad does NOT hold the "all" there was ALWAYS going to be limited to Israel ONLY.
Case in point...
Mark 7:24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid. 7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
7:28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. 7:29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. 7:30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
Only when she acknowledged her lower status as one under the table of those who were then still "first" (the children of Israel) did He do what Israel's OT Prophets are also depicted doing at times - blessing a Gentile who acknowledges Israel and or the God of Israel.
Mad does not deny that; Mad holds to that.
But that is not the same as the Mystery that Paul had preached.
Both aspects are aspects within the Gospel of God: concerning His Son - both contain a salvation.
And neither is faith plus works.
Which is often a poor explanation anyway.
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You're wrong, but at least you're consistent.
dodge
New member
Danoh , I do read your posts and appreciate your taking the time to instruct. I do not agree with MAD nor do I see where the "mystery" was not taught by Jesus ( it was ) and other Apostles in their ministries.
Please, explain to me how salvation is different for a Jew and a Gentile if you believe it is.
Have a blessed day !
dodge
New member
Got ya, All does not mean ALL ! Do you believe is is ?
This question of who wrote Hebrews is one that will never be resolved and is, therefore, not really worth arguing about. We both have our own opinions and that's all they are, just opinions.
Concerning the last statement you made in the link you gave:
"P.S. Why would the apostle of the gentiles write a book to the HEBREWS?"
Why, indeed? Officially, Paul's Acts ministry was to the Gentiles, which would not be at all full-blown until after Ac28:28. Practically, though, Paul's ministry was to Israel. During Acts, the ONLY purpose of saving Gentiles was to provoke Israel to jealousy (emulation; rivalry). The reason for this was to help push Israel, as a nation, into accepting Christ as the promised Messiah. Only then would Christ return. Only then would the promised earthy Kingdom be installed. It's impossible to read Acts without seeing that Paul preached this good news to Israel all through the book of Acts. He preached to Hebrews in synagogue after synagogue. His last action in Acts involved him preaching this message to the Pharisees, the spiritual leaders of Israel. Most of his converts, at least at first, were Israelites. These were those who the book of Hebrews was directed to, IMHO.
Most all of the Gentiles that Paul preached to in Acts were "those that feared God", a Jewish idiom used to convey those mostly uncircumcised Gentile proselytes that believed in the God of Israel and attended the synagogue meetings.
Fine. Sell all you have, "the teachings of Jesus." And, while you are at it, where is your condo in Jerusalem, where you are to attend 3 time/year, to keep "the appointed tines"/"feasts," per "the teachings of Jesus." I need a place to stay, while I'm surfing in the Dead Sea.
Fraud.
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I know that ALL words have a meaning IN the CONTEXT in which they are used.
dodge
New member
Got ya ! All only means some in your opinion. So does is mean is ?
You would have an argument if Jesus had said come unto me ALL Israel etc, but He didn't now did HE ?
Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Slower-the DBR, the foundation of the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, was hid from the 12, at least prior to it's occurrence. And yet, the 12, including Judas, did preach the good news/gospel of the kingdom, for approximately 3 years, clueless as to the impending, prophesied DBR.
I know that is quite deep, not jiving with your SOF....breathe deep...
The 12, at least prior to the DBR, never preached the gospel/good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, and you cannot cite 1 scripture, that says they did, dodger, Nag, (fill in the blank).....
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I would mostly agree, therefore we cannot attribute this book to Paul since we do not know who wrote it.
You don't think that it's compelling that ALL 13 of Paul's epistles are signed "Paul" and that he said that this is a token in every epistle that he writes? And yet this is not true for the book to the Hebrews.
I don't see how you could get "rivalry" out of jealousy.
The book to the Hebrews is clearly doctrine consistent with Israel's history and not like the doctrines Paul preached in his epistles.
Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Apparantly, as with "all" words, the word "all" is also a word that is defined by where it is found being used, as to who, what, as to WHEN, why...and how.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
All? You sure about that?
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Poor Jesus, no "dodge the truth" back then to tell Him that things that differ...do not.
:doh:
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You really are a rabid religious zealot. Go ahead and remain in your self-imposed ignorance.
P.S. We Mid-Acts dispensationalists believe that everyone must come through Jesus Christ, so you can quit lying about that too.
P.P.S. You probably also think that Jesus is made of wood (John 10:7,9).
dodge
New member
No doubt "all" died in the flood except those who were on the ark. So all meant exactly what it says there all.
I understand that as in all have sinned and come short of the glory of God knowing Jesus never sinned because other scripture testifies to that.
I have no reason to doubt or not believe the above scripture. Do you ?
The way Jesus used "all" yes
I have no reason to doubt or not believe the above scripture. DO you ?
With TV and the internet the above is very possible.
Let me get this straight in my mind. Paul comes along and everything Jesus taught no longer applies. He walked the earth for 33 years and did not tell those He came to remove from darkness to light and lies to truth the full gospel ?
I know God hid the meaning for awhile, but make no mistake Jesus told ALL of the mystery as eventually did all the APOSTLES.
What happened to those folks between Jesus' ascension and Paul's conversion. The scriptures record many getting saved in that period. How did that happen if the " mystery" had not been revealed by Paul yet ?
Paul said to follow him as he followed Jesus ! Now along comes some and says nope do not Jesus follow Paul.
Things that are the same remain the same even though folks try to change them.
:bang:
Yep :thumb:
Hi and the verb JEALOUSY / PARAZELEO is a Transliterated Greek and and has many different words that can be used !!
I have a translation who uses Rom 11:11 TO PROVOKE TO JEALOUSY and in verse and is also used in Rom 10:19 and the Greek word is also translated EMULATION !!
I believe that the correct tanslation is TO PROVOKE TO JEALOUSY !!
dan p
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So you think that Paul was trying to create a "rivalry" between these people?
I use Strong's too, but be careful putting to much emphasis on it.