ECT Do those who believe MAD believe the Apostle Paul was a liar ?

[steko]

I have NEVER said Judas preached the gospel of grace ! After Jesus resurrected and ALL the Apostles preached the Gospel of grace Judas was already dead. Don't put or add words to my post.

If there is only one gospel and Judas preached the gospel then where does that leave us?

 

[Interplanner]

They tend to defend rather than explain sometimes, but you are missing an important piece: They only believe in one gospel today. Rather, two-gospels is how they divide dispensations in scripture. They only believe there is one gospel to day.


I'm not MAD, but I've discovered you have to ask first, throw down a gauntlet later. Their dispensationalism actually makes better sense to me than the majority of dispensationalism.





I'm not MAD but they are very consistent in their theology. They do follow Christ. Following Paul is following Christ. There is no conflict per say for them.

I think it is important to realize they believe you are reading somebody else's mail with that. They do not despise or reject anything the Lord Jesus Christ says, they rather run it through a filter first to ensure they are actually being consistent (obedient) to the gospel.



This is the sticky part. Some of them will believe you cannot be saved, but most will rather question you further to discern that. They believe the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ. I'd suggest this part of the conversation is about Lordship and works based salvation vs. grace based salvation. With them, I've memorized Ephesians 2:8-10. It'll help conversing with MAD to memorize that verse. A lot of conversations with them turn around belief in it.


Interestingly, they are the only ones that read Hebrews the same way I do. That alone got me listening a bit more and speaking a bit less. You are not the only one that sees MAD and/or HyperDispensationalism this way, but I think most of it is because the structure of categorizing their systematic theology is so foreign to the rest.

I guess I'm saying give them a bit more of a listen so you can more effectively discuss these with them. I'm not MAD. I'm just saying I appreciate where I agree with them and when it comes to the gospel, think they understand salvation by Grace alone.




Not a lie, they are embracing Paul's message and embracing his opposition to Peter over Judaizing. Even if you never buy into their understanding, understanding them is good for reflecting on your own theology. I've appreciated the bible more simply by reading a good many of these threads.


They have a good answer for this too. In addition to Hebrews, I agree with them on this too (and a good many other points).

Food for thought and hopefully contemplation. -Lon

What is their treatment of Hebrews that you are referring to?

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus is the Lamb.

How do you EVER get that the Lamb is for only the Jews?

The Lamb was ON THE CROSS.

How do you get that you can come to the cross and not understand what the Lamb is and does?

Read your Bible and you'll find that the lamb/goat that took away the sins runs away alive into the wilderness.

Lev 16:20-22 (KJV)​

(16:20) And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: (16:21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (16:22) And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
​

The LORD Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but that was NOT known until Christ revealed it to Paul.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus is the Lamb on the cross and that is where his blood was shed.

If you come to the cross to be saved, you come to the Lamb.

Do you understand that you will be without God and Christ if you do not come into the covenant? See Ephesians 2:12.

You mean the covenant between God and Israel?

That is why you crazies force (or try to force) Israel to mean something other that what it really means.

I'm saved by grace through faith WITHOUT any covenant. The LORD Jesus Christ shed His blood for me and I am complete in HIM!

 

[Interplanner]

You mean the covenant between God and Israel?

That is why you crazies force (or try to force) Israel to mean something other that what it really means.

I'm saved by grace through faith WITHOUT any covenant. The LORD Jesus Christ shed His blood for me and I am complete in HIM!

Most of the new covenant passages in the NT are for all people; you have half a case in the Jer 31 quote in hebrews, but then, all of Hebrews is benefits of Christ that we Gentiles have anyway. And you will not provide a list.

 

[Lon]

What is their treatment of Hebrews that you are referring to?

A bit off the track but in a nutshell: Hebrews is 1) written to "Hebrews" 2) Paul (or the writer of Hebrews) says "Our Forefathers" so the message has to be read, imho and theirs: to Hebrews specifically. When we get to the warning passages, they are specifically to people who had been given two dynamics to follow God, the O.T. and the N.T. Thus, my understanding of 'no sacrifice left' is if they went back to trying to sacrifice or worship in the synagogue and temple "crucifying Christ all over again."

I don't tend to isolate books as only being for one group or the other (I'm not sure all MADists do either). I have a different way of reconciling James, for example. I think 'works' be part of the light that shines within us, thus think James is more agreeing with Paul ala Ephesians 2:10

In a nutshell, we come to a lot of the same conclusions, but get there by different suppositions. Granted there are differences as well.
-Lon

 

[Right Divider]

Some more scripture Madist ignore and do not understand !

1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We do understand this doctrine from one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

It's pretty simple.

Paul, on the other hand, tells us that we HAVE BEEN forgiven all trespasses. And we thank and praise the LORD for that!

Col 2:13-15 (KJV)​

(2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
​

You should be thankful that Christ has already done this. But instead you want to be an Israelite and put the focus on your confession.

 

[Right Divider]

Most of the new covenant passages in the NT are for all people; you have half a case in the Jer 31 quote in hebrews, but then, all of Hebrews is benefits of Christ that we Gentiles have anyway. And you will not provide a list.

Poor little confused IP.

Why is the book named HEBREWS again?

Hebrews CONFIRMED that the new covenant will be with Israel.

So simply that even a dummy like you SHOULD be able to understand it.

 

[Interplanner]

We do understand this doctrine from one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

It's pretty simple.

Paul, on the other hand, tells us that we HAVE BEEN forgiven all trespasses. And we thank and praise the LORD for that!

Col 2:13-15 (KJV)​

(2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
​

You should be thankful that Christ has already done this. But instead you want to be an Israelite and put the focus on your confession.

Paul said his message was for both. Your is more artificial thinking from 2P2P.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul said his message was for both. Your is more artificial thinking from 2P2P.

The dispensation of the grace of God is for everyone. What is the problem with that?

And YET, Paul also says that he is the apostle of the gentiles. You never heard the twelve say that.

 

[steko]

Paul said his message was for both. Your is more artificial thinking from 2P2P.

Both Jew and gentile as individuals, not Israel and the nations corporately.

 

[dodge]

If there is only one gospel and Judas preached the gospel then where does that leave us?

Personally I don't believe the Apostles preached the Completed Gospel until after Jesus resurrected. From that point on I believe they ALL preached the complete Gospel. Judas was dead when Jesus resurrected.

 

[steko]

Personally I don't believe the Apostles preached the Completed Gospel until after Jesus resurrected. From that point on I believe they ALL preached the complete Gospel. Judas was dead when Jesus resurrected.

But Judas did preach the gospel of the kingdom....right?

 

[dodge]

We do understand this doctrine from one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

It's pretty simple.

Paul, on the other hand, tells us that we HAVE BEEN forgiven all trespasses. And we thank and praise the LORD for that!

Col 2:13-15 (KJV)​

(2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
​

You should be thankful that Christ has already done this. But instead you want to be an Israelite and put the focus on your confession.

Nah, you don't understand those verses you just crush them out of context and force the false results to fit MADness.

 

[dodge]

But Judas did preach the gospel of the kingdom....right?

Nope ! There is only ONE gospel. The Gospel is about Jesus and His blood covers both Jew and Gentile.

 

[God's Truth]

Read your Bible and you'll find that the lamb/goat that took away the sins runs away alive into the wilderness.

Lev 16:20-22 (KJV)​

(16:20) And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: (16:21) And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (16:22) And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
​

The LORD Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but that was NOT known until Christ revealed it to Paul.

What don't you get that Jesus is not the goat he is the Lamb of God and the Lamb was sacrificed on the cross and shed his blood on the cross?

 

[God's Truth]

You mean the covenant between God and Israel?

That is why you crazies force (or try to force) Israel to mean something other that what it really means.

I'm saved by grace through faith WITHOUT any covenant. The LORD Jesus Christ shed His blood for me and I am complete in HIM!

There is no salvation outside the covenant.

Paul was a preacher of the New Covenant, and he even quoted Jesus speaking of the New Covenant.

Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Gentiles. Paul says he is a minister of a NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!



Romans 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

2 Corinthians 2:12
[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:55
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


You call me crazy!? Can you not read for yourself?

 

[steko]

Nope ! There is only ONE gospel. The Gospel is about Jesus and His blood covers both Jew and Gentile.

When those of Israel heard John the Baptist say, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand", what do you think they thought he was referring to?
What only source of information did they have with which to understand the term?

 

[God's Truth]

When those of Israel heard John the Baptist say, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand", what do you think they thought he was referring to?
What only source of information did they have with which to understand the term?

The kingdom at hand is about being saved, reconciled to God.

All the apostles taught it.

 

[dodge]

When those of Israel heard John the Baptist say, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand", what do you think they thought he was referring to?
What only source of information did they have with which to understand the term?

I believe they thought John was referring to the Messiah who they believed would come and free them from Roman occupation. They were looking for an earthly king and had no clue the Messiah came to die on a cross as payment for sin.

The Torah.