ECT DID JESUS TEACH SOLA SCRIPTURA?

Cruciform

New member
Because obviously, if you can't uphold something without violating cruciform's arbitrary rules, it can't be true.
Which "rules" are those, exactly?

1+1 will never equal 2, if there's a verse division in there and cruciform doesn't like the conclusion.
Pot, meet Kettle.

I wonder if you think that Jesus was the Wisdom of God, who is responsible for the content of the entire bible... or were Peter and the other apostles just speaking/writing as their own imagination carried them along?
Both. Like Christ (the Word)---who is both 100% divine and 100% human---the Bible (the Word) is also both divine and human. That is the Christian doctrine of biblical inspiration.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

moparguy

New member
Which "rules" are those, exactly?

The rules that allow you to say if Jesus didn't explicitly say it in so many words, he couldn't possibly have taught it.

There are these things known as necessary consequences. Like, say, the trinity, which is Jesus christ never explicitly taught. Or do you reject those councils?

Pot, meet Kettle.

So, I ignored what your words meant?

... Where?


Both. Like Christ (the Word)---who is both 100% divine and 100% human---the Bible (the Word) is also both divine and human. That is the Christian doctrine of biblical inspiration.

Are you really affirming that the apostles were NOT inspired by the holy spirit? That's what the latter part of what I said would mean.
 

Cruciform

New member
The rules that allow you to say if Jesus didn't explicitly say it in so many words, he couldn't possibly have taught it.
I never claimed any such thing. Try again.

Like, say, the trinity, which is Jesus Christ never explicitly taught. Or do you reject those councils?
Which councils in particular?

Are you really affirming that the apostles were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit?
Of course not.

That's what the latter part of what I said would mean.
No it wouldn't. This is merely a false assumption on your part, as I illustrated in Post #421 above. You seem to be having a difficult time comprehending precisely what biblical inspiration actually entails.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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moparguy

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I never claimed any such thing. Try again.

How handy 1+1 doesn't equal 2. What you posted NECESSITATES you not allowing scripture to be taken as a whole on any given topic.

You said that Jesus never taught sola scriptura (I suspect you probably are straw-manning the position in your mind), and scripture clearly contains the teaching of sola scriptura (what we actually believe, not what you SAY we believe).

2Tim 3:16-17 is the positive side of SS, and 1Cor 1:20 and other like texts are the negative side.

They add up to sola scriptura. Simply because something isn't expressed in a single arbitrary verse or in the verbatim recorded words of Jesus doesn't mean that the bible doesn't teach any given thing.

Which councils in particular?

Minimally? lets say, first council of nicea.

Of course not.

Than I'm just going to assume that you didn't understand what I meant.

No it wouldn't. This is merely a false assumption on your part, as I illustrated in Post #421 above. You seem to be having a difficult time comprehending precisely what biblical inspiration actually entails.

Yes, it would.

2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

It was not MERELY nor Only their imaginings. It was the inspiration of the holy spirit. The things the apostles and others wrote down, because they wanted to, were exactly what the HS intended.

The apostles weren't mindless copy machines. Their will and choices in writing the biblical texts were exactly what God wanted.
 

Soror1

New member
...

Not all "tradition," as is seen in the fact that the apostles themselves commanded adherence to apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Cor. 11:2). Try again...

Hmmm... You are appealing to Scripture for the authority of the apostolic tradition. :)
 

Cruciform

New member
How handy 1+1 doesn't equal 2. What you posted NECESSITATES you not allowing scripture to be taken as a whole on any given topic.
Apparently like yourself, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Try again.

You said that Jesus never taught sola scriptura...
Correct, Jesus knew absolutely nothing of the 16th-century Protestant doctrinal invention called sola scriptura. (See this.)

...scripture clearly contains the teaching of sola scriptura (what we actually believe, not what you SAY we believe).
Go ahead and post your definition of "sola scriptura." I only know the definition I was taught at both Evangelical Protestant university and Evangelical Protestant seminary. :chuckle:

2Tim 3:16-17 is the positive side of SS...
I'll wait until you provide your definition of sola scriptura before commenting on this text.

...and 1Cor 1:20...
Not only does this biblical text say nothing whatsoever about "Scripture alone," it doesn't even say anything about "Scripture" period. Try again.

They add up to sola scriptura.
Not even close.

Simply because something isn't expressed in a single arbitrary verse or in the verbatim recorded words of Jesus doesn't mean that the bible doesn't teach any given thing.
Merely a Straw Man Fallacy on your part, since I have never claimed any such position as you describe here.

Minimally? lets say, first council of nicea.
You mean the authoritative Catholic Council of Nicea held in 325 A.D.? Of course I affirm its decrees, including those on the Incarnation and Trinity.

Yes, it would.
Post #421.

2 Peter 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Yes, both God and men were involved in the process of Scripture's composition. God's inspiration in no way somehow negated or bypassed the personalities, knowledge, cultural mindset, or writing style and ability of the human writers. The Scriptures are God's Word (message) in human words, and the latter cannot properly be ignored it the Bible's interpretation.

It was not MERELY nor Only their imaginings.
I never claimed otherwise.

It was the inspiration of the holy spirit.
...but not MERELY or ONLY the influence of the Holy Spirit (see just above).

The things the apostles and others wrote down, because they wanted to, were exactly what the HS intended.
Agreed. But they were also what the human writers chose to write.

The apostles weren't mindless copy machines.
Agreed. We reject the Dictation Theory of biblical inspiration.

Their will and choices in writing the biblical texts were exactly what God wanted.
I've already affirmed exactly that. Scripture is BOTH Divine AND human.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Cruciform

New member
Hmmm... You are appealing to Scripture for the authority of the apostolic tradition. :)
Of course. Catholics may appeal to Scripture as AN authority without buying into the false 16th-century Protestant assumption that Scripture is the ONLY authority.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Post #398.

Perhaps you are under the impression that John 10:28 was actually discussed on one of the catholic articles on post #398. But I searched and searched and could find no mention of that verse.

But you give the false impression that an answer can be found there despite the fact that you know that is not true.

Now let us look again at your comments on John 10:28 and my remarks to what you said:

The protection that Jesus provides for his sheep is equivalent to the Father's divine protection (Jn. 10:29). This means, from the perspective of the Old Testament, that Christ wields the sovereign power of Yahweh to shield the righteous from the threats of their enemies (Deut. 32:39; Is. 43:13).

So does the Lord Jesus always shield the righteous from the threats of their enemies? That must be what Rome teaches since the Lord Jesus says that "they shall never perish."

But how do you explain the fact that the Bible shows that the righteous do not always receive the divine protection?:

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" (Rev.18:23-24).​

According to Rome's ideas the Lord words that "they shall never perish" must mean that the righteous will always have divine protection but what we see at Revelation 18:24 proves that Rome is wrong.

Can you not see that what Rome says about John 10:28 cannot possibly be correct? And do not tell me again that you have already answered it because you haven't.
 

Cruciform

New member
So does the Lord Jesus always shield the righteous from the threats of their enemies?...But how do you explain the fact that the Bible shows that the righteous do not always receive the divine protection?
  • The righteous enjoy the Lord's protection for as long as they happen to be righteous.
  • However, not every righteous individual necessarily remains in a state of righteousness.
  • And those who forfeit their condition of righteousness are no longer guaranteed God's protection.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The righteous enjoy the Lord's protection for as long as they happen to be righteous.

No!

This is an "unconditional" statement made by the Lord Jesus:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Anyone can make the Bible say anything that they want it to say by adding conditions to unconditional statements.

John says that Christian have been given eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

And the Lord Jesus Himself says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. That, my friend, is eternal security.

Rome is once again in error.
 

Cruciform

New member
This is an "unconditional" statement made by the Lord Jesus: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
Any interpretation must account for ALL of the biblical data on the subject. Yours simply does not. The fact is that it utterly fails to account for the biblical content listed here and here.

Sorry for your confusion.

Anyone can make the Bible say anything that they want it to say by adding conditions to unconditional statements.
The entire context of Scripture must be accounted for. Biblical Interpretation 101.

John says that Christian have been given eternal life: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
Yes, God has given us eternal life. The Bible is clear, however, that we can forfeit that divine gift through grave sin and rebellion (see cited sources above).

And the Lord Jesus Himself says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish.
Yes---provided one "perseveres to the end" (Mt. 10:22; 24:13). (Again, see cited sources above.)


Back to Post #432.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Any interpretation must account for ALL of the biblical data on the subject.


Why did you not even attempt to answer my last point? I said that you added a condition to an unconditional statement. And you said nothing to prove that I am wrong. I guess that both you and Rome have a right to edit the Bible in anyway that you see fit. I deal with what the Bible says as it is written.

Of course you are unable to carry on an intelligent conversation on eternal security. When you cannot provide an intelligent answer about my words in regard to John 10:28 all you do is give me a couple of Catholic sites which do not even address John 10:28.

So now is the time to just say that you have no answer to my points and that Rome has no answer either. All you have proved is that Rome is in error again.
 

Soror1

New member
Of course. Catholics may appeal to Scripture as AN authority without buying into the false 16th-century Protestant assumption that Scripture is the ONLY authority.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

I think you may be confusing Sola Scriptura with solo scriptura. The former is that Scripture is the final authority, not the only authority.

Is there any tradition that you consider necessary and authoritative that does not have its basis in Scripture?
 

Soror1

New member
...
Correct, Jesus knew absolutely nothing of the 16th-century Protestant doctrinal invention called sola scriptura...


What did Jesus do in Matt 15 and Mark 7 to call out a tradition as a tradition of men but appeal to the authority of Scripture?
 

Cruciform

New member
Why did you not even attempt to answer my last point? I said that you added a condition to an unconditional statement. And you said nothing to prove that I am wrong.
In fact, I did exactly that in Post #434 above.

I guess that both you and Rome have a right to edit the Bible in anyway that you see fit.
Funny how non-Catholics like to charge Catholics with things that apply directly to themselves.

I deal with what the Bible says as it is written.

You do? Then you must agree with the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, correct? After all, Jesus himself declared "This IS my body...this IS my blood" (Mt. 26:26-28), and "My flesh IS food indeed, and my blood IS drink indeed" (Jn. 6:55).

Surely you believe this ancient Christian teaching that was held by all early believers---unless you're simply engaged in "editing the Bible in anyway that you see fit"...? :think:

Of course you are unable to carry on an intelligent conversation on eternal security.
Again, funny how non-Catholics like to charge Catholics with things that apply directly to themselves. Thanks for merely proving my point.

When you cannot provide an intelligent answer about my words in regard to John 10:28 all you do is give me a couple of Catholic sites which do not even address John 10:28.
Already answered (Post #434).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Cruciform

New member
I think you may be confusing Sola Scriptura with solo scriptura. The former is that Scripture is the final authority, not the only authority.
Strictly speaking, there's really no essential difference.

Is there any tradition that you consider necessary and authoritative that does not have its basis in Scripture?
No, since all teachings of Tradition are at least implicitly contained in Scripture, and vice versa. One Traditional doctrine that comes to mind, however, which is virtually absent from Scripture itself is the Canon of the Bible.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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Cruciform

New member
What did Jesus do in Matt 15 and Mark 7 to call out a tradition as a tradition of men but appeal to the authority of Scripture?
Appealing to the basic authority of Scripture is not the same as sola scriptura. Catholics---who reject sola scriptura---do the former. So did Jesus Christ.
 
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