Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[quip]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly.

Honestly, are you one of destiny's hellbound?

 

[Clete]

Questions:

1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

Why don't you start a thread where universalism is the topic of discussion?

:troll:

 

[Right Divider]

Do you think that this lake of fire is literal?

I take it just the way that the Bible describes it.

Care to explain how death and hell are cast into it?

Nope.

As with Revelation in general it's steeped in metaphor and symbolism and essentially you've concocted a very convoluted way of twisting "especially" into "only".

You're telling LIES again. I NEVER said that "specially" means "only" and CLEARLY explained what it means in CONTRAST to what you accuses me of.

If it's only believers who are spared, then whatever you believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" to be, Jesus is only the saviour of people who believe. Might as well argue that a lifeguard is the saviour of all people he's rescued including those who drown.

Twist it any way that you like, I'll just believe the Bible.

Not sure what was tripping you up exactly. Specify as to why FL is arguing from a "false premise" and why he's incorrect and you aren't.

Already did.

He seems to be rather clued up on the original texts and translations and is certainly more detailed in his arguments than you've been in turn.

You're easily impressed.

I don't claim to have that anyway but you obviously think you have enough to call other people's positions false premises.

Is it not possible to do so?

Unfortunately it's pretty common in the more fundamentalist areas of religion. All sorts of barbarity and cruelty can be "justified" under the banner of "truth". I've spoke to hardcore Calvinists who would tell you that they'd rejoice in not only their own offspring being tortured if they weren't part of the "elect" but would gladly bask in viewing their suffering as well.

So?

Not any hard line religious one I don't.

I'm so proud of you.

I don't ascribe to anything that blindly negates reason thanks.

Neither do I, so there.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I take it just the way that the Bible describes it.

So, in a chapter of the bible steeped in symbolism you think the lake of fire is a literal lake of fire?

Nope.

Why not? You should be able to explain it easily enough? How can an intangible object be cast into anything?

You're telling LIES again. I NEVER said that "specially" means "only" and CLEARLY explained what it means in CONTRAST to what you accuses me of.

No I'm not. Your position means that only believers are saved from whatever you happen to believe hell or the lake of fire to be. That's not my fault RD.

Twist it any way that you like, I'll just believe the Bible.

As above. Plenty folk say they believe the bible while accusing those who don't believe the same as them of being a heretic so that means very little in itself.

Already did.

No you didn't, anything but in fact.

You're easily impressed.

No, I'm not. He took the time to address you and you had nothing of substance in turn. You should answer in depth as to why he has a "false premise" if you're going to be honest and substantive on the matter.

Is it not possible to do so?

Sure, but you should have something to back it up.

So?

So doesn't that strike you as absolutely vile, unloving, sick and insidious? It does to me. How can any "loving" parent be gleeful at the prospect of their children writhing in agony? Beliefs like that are putrid beyond words.

I'm so proud of you.

I'm not.

Neither do I, so there.

You do if you're set on there being eternal torment for people in some literal lake of fire dude.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Why don't you start a thread where universalism is the topic of discussion?

:troll:

He already has and why is he a "troll" for addressing this one with similar? It's pertinent and a counter to the OP, one with which I'm sure you're at odds with yourself.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So, in a chapter of the bible steeped in symbolism you think the lake of fire is a literal lake of fire?

A real place can't be given a name that describes figuratively what the place is like?

Why not? You should be able to explain it easily enough? How can an intangible object be cast into anything?

The Bible also doesn't say how God, a supernatural being, created the natural universe. But we know what your position is on that already...

No I'm not. Your position means that only believers are saved from whatever you happen to believe hell or the lake of fire to be. That's not my fault RD.



As above. Plenty folk say they believe the bible while accusing those who don't believe the same as them of being a heretic so that means very little in itself.



No you didn't, anything but in fact.



No, I'm not. He took the time to address you and you had nothing of substance in turn. You should answer in depth as to why he has a "false premise" if you're going to be honest and substantive on the matter.

I will reply to him when I get the chance, so you won't miss out on anything.

Sure, but you should have something to back it up.



So doesn't that strike you as absolutely vile, unloving, sick and insidious? It does to me. How can any "loving" parent be gleeful at the prospect of their children writhing in agony? Beliefs like that are putrid beyond words.

Just goes to show why it's important to understand what the Bible ACTUALLY says, and not just what one wants it to say.

I'm not.



You do if you're set on there being eternal torment for people in some literal lake of fire dude.

So how about you come up with a better alternative to casting people away from Him who don't want to exist with Him for the rest of eternity? Hmm?

You claim it's such a horrid thing for God to do, but you have yet to provide an alternative.

 

[ok doser]

So doesn't that strike you as absolutely vile, unloving, sick and insidious? It does to me. How can any "loving" parent be gleeful at the prospect of their children writhing in agony? Beliefs like that are putrid beyond words.

my goodness, aren't we emotional today

hormones running amok?

 

[FineLinen]

Asking "questions" based on your FALSE PREMISES is childish and silly.

Dear R.D. I am not going to hold your youth and inexperience against you, but if you choose to engage me, it will be necessary to list>>>>

1. What is the false premise.

2. What is silly

3. What is childish.

Perhaps the Scripture listed at the bottom of your posts is silly. I find the Apostle Paul is surely wrong when he instructs us to command and teach the fact that God is [the] Saviour of all mankind. Do you find St. Paul silly? I don't! Perhaps "especially" means only, maybe the koine should be monon and not malista: is that what is silly, childish & and a false premise?

I will answer the other 4 responses if I can tomorrow. They will be in the same vein as today. If you find my responses with a false premise, childish, and silly, so be it. You must deal with that in your union with the Father.

 

[FineLinen]

If God wills it who's to say it won't happen? He's making a lot more sense than you or the thread starter have to say on the matter and his questions are far from "childish".

Dear Arthur Bain: I do appreciate your response to R.D. We can only post what is from our experience, the Holy Ghost must anoint those words or they will simply be silly, childish and a false premise.

 

[MennoSota]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.[/QUOTE [MENTION=6223]beloved57[/MENTION], this thread reveals that many, many intrabiblical cult members reside on TOL who are destined to hell. The non-elect struggle mightily with God having total, sovereign control. Thank you for starting this thread so that heretics would become obvious.

 

[Right Divider]

So, in a chapter of the bible steeped in symbolism you think the lake of fire is a literal lake of fire?

Symbols point to real things.

Why not? You should be able to explain it easily enough? How can an intangible object be cast into anything?

Why is it "intangible"?

Death and hell are real things. After these are thrown into the lake of fire, there is no more death or hell.

No I'm not. Your position means that only believers are saved from whatever you happen to believe hell or the lake of fire to be. That's not my fault RD.

Apple and oranges... you cannot focus enough to discuss anything.

The VERSE that you were talking about describes the LORD Jesus Christ as the savior of ALL men.... but then it says SPECIALLY for those that BELIEVE. So I leave it alone and believe it. You try to change it to suit your preconceived ideas.

As above. Plenty folk say they believe the bible while accusing those who don't believe the same as them of being a heretic so that means very little in itself.

Whoopee.

No you didn't, anything but in fact.

No, I'm not. He took the time to address you and you had nothing of substance in turn. You should answer in depth as to why he has a "false premise" if you're going to be honest and substantive on the matter.

He selectively cherry-picks verses and ignores the rest. I don't feel like writing a dissertation at the moment.

Mark 3:28-30 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.​

​

Mark 9:43-45 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​

If "eternal damnation" is simply ceasing to exist, what's to fear?

So doesn't that strike you as absolutely vile, unloving, sick and insidious? It does to me. How can any "loving" parent be gleeful at the prospect of their children writhing in agony? Beliefs like that are putrid beyond words.

God's ways are perfect and you can rebel against Him if you like. It's not going to go well.

I'm not.

Well good for you.

You do if you're set on there being eternal torment for people in some literal lake of fire dude.

So I'm "set on it"?

I just believe God and His Word.... no matter where that leads.

You think that you're wiser than God.

 

[FineLinen]

Question #5= Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

Your response=

Is "pleasure" your standard for whether God is God? Why not recognize that the standard is that He is living, loving, personal, relational, and good?

My response=

The standard is that which the Father "cherishes" and to the Purpose in His beloved Son the Christ. He takes pleasure in what He has conceived and to that to which He moves in consultation with no one or thing.

Question#6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

Your response=

Jesus died for all. Yet not all will accept his sacrifice.

My response=

Not yet! In the end every knee bows, every tongue confesses IN the Name "You are Lord!" But wait, there is more! Every knee, every tongue in every dimension of our Father's world of the heavens, the earth & the underworld singing in antiphonal chorus of "You are worthy." This worship is not by perfunctory genuflections but arising out of what it means to be IN Christ!

Jesus died for all. He is the hilasmos of the holos, His propitiation is not for the "especially" ONLY, nor only for the elect. He is the propitiation for the whole enchilada. Do you remember the '"silly childish" equation?

"the polus are made sinners">>>>>>>>"the polus are made righteous." Not accounted righteous: made righteous.

Question#7=

If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

Your response=

Declaring the end point of a race doesn't mean the person who set the finish line knows who will race, let alone win.

Declaring the destination for a plane doesn't mean the scheduler knows who will be on that plane.

My response=

You talk of a scheduler, I speak of a Scheduler! You speak of a person, I speak of a Person who has made all as the Source, Guide and Goal!

Question#8=

Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

Your response=

God cannot be good if, like a sadist and kidnapper, He keeps those who do not want to be with Him in His presence for all eternity. And if God is not good, then He is not God, because God is good.

My response=

Every last one has been made by God and for God. Every last one will be consummated ultimately in Him! His essence is Savour, Love, Spirit and Light, all of which flow in harmony to His Purpose IN Christ Jesus the Lord!

Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

 

[Clete]

He already has and why is he a "troll" for addressing this one with similar? It's pertinent and a counter to the OP, one with which I'm sure you're at odds with yourself.

Because it isn't similar. He wants to discuss universalism and so posts a list of questions that is in response to nothing that anyone has said on this thread. He's a troll.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Dear JudgeRightly: Thank you for taking the time to respond to the questions. I will respond to you one question at a time.

It would be easier on both of us if you just quote my post and respond with one complete post, instead of not using the QUOTE function at all.

#1. The language of the koine is beyond a mere wish, or fancy. He willeth/wills all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I am inclined to believe the will of all wills stands secure! His wishes do as well.

2 Peter 3:9:

ου βραδυνει κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις υμας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Strong's g1014 - Lexical: βούλομαι - Transliteration: boulomai - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: boo'-lom-ahee - Definition: to will, intend, desire, wish. - Origin: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing. - Usage: be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare ethelo. - Translated as (count): desiring (5), I want (4), I purposed (2), intending (2), purposed (2), purposing (2), resolving (2), wished (2), desired (1), has chosen (1), Having willed (1), he was willing (1), he wills (1), I desire (1), I have been desiring (1), might choose (1), might resolve (1), resolve (1), resolves (1), We resolve (1), willing (1), wish you (1), You are willing (1), you intend (1).

The Koine word doesn't make the distinction you make. And in addition to that, the verse states the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

"NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God doesn't will that any should perish. Yet most will, as stated in scripture:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:11-15&version=NKJV

Do not worry about any being dwelling before the consuming fire of our God unwillingly.

Why would I worry if I know it will happen?

And, in fact, every knee bows in worship before Him, and every tongue confesses "You are Lord" to the Fathers glory.

Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him as God is a good thing to do, even if they don't want to.

Such worship by every being, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld are NOT by perfunctory genuflections,

Again, forcing those to acknowledge God as God is a good thing to do. They aren't worshipping.

Those who love God worship Him willingly.

but IN/EN the Name of all names. You do know what being in Christ Jesus means? Of course you do!

The scope is clear:

Every being in every dimension of our Fathers Realm singin in antiphonal worhip: every last one!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/2-peter/3-9-compare.html

You can't get around what Revelation 20:11-15 says.

It says that anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. That means those who reject God.

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

Your response=

Because the future is not settled, and prayer can affect God.

F.L. responds...

The future is indeed settled.

Certain things will happen, and God will prevail in the end, But that doesn't mean that everything is settled, predetermined. You can choose to respond to my posts, or you could choose to completely ignore everything I write. God did not predestine you to do either, but gave you the ability to do either. God is capable of working around those who reject Him.

3His will & wishes prevails!

Again, God wants all to come to repentance, but clearly not all will, as Scripture says "anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."

Prayer out of union with Him "IN Jesus Name" is the union of the creature with the Creator.

Ok, and?

We do not change or "affect" God, we pray in union with the Name of all names. Such prayer changes nothing, we are simply in accord with the Will from whom the all comes, through whom the all exists & and in whom the all ends. He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all!

Several times in scripture, men of God interceded on other men's behalf, and God changed his mind about destroying them.

One of the best examples of this is King Hezekiah:

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ” - 2 Kings 20:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-6&version=NKJV

Hezekiah was going to die. It wasn't because He was wicked, or because he did anything wrong. He was a righteous king. God told Him (through Isaiah) that He was going to die. But Hezekiah prayed to God, and asked Him to spare his life, and God heard him, and BECAUSE of Hezekiah's prayer, He healed him.

So, my question is this: Are you calling God a liar for telling Hezekiah that he would heal him and allow him to live for 15 more years, after He said that he was going to die? Or, as per the Open View, did the circumstances change, and God, being capable, changed His mind about Hezekiah dying?

Question #3=

Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

Your response=

God's will is that all should come to repentance. It pleases God when someone does, and it pains Him when someone dies rejecting Him.

F.L. responds=

Remember: the Will of all wills prevails! He is the Lord of the dead and the living. He is not a potntial Saviour; "He is Saviour of all mankind.."

And yet, even though He is the Saviour of the world, people still reject Him. Which brings us back to my answer to your next question in the list.

But wait there is more>>>>>>>

He is the Saviour "especially" of those who believe/trust in Him.

Note

He is not the Saviour of only those who believe. He is Saviour of especially those who believe.

Koine monos= only

Malista= especially

Agreed. And yet, people still reject Him.

Question #4=

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

Your Response=

Would forcing someone to live with Him for all eternity be pleasing to God?

My response=

Absolutely not!

Good answer.

This is exactly why God cannot save everyone who ever lived, is living, or ever will live. Only those who accept Him.

When I am lifted up I will draw/drag off/ impel with power all mankind onto Me.

There is an old hymn of making us ready to go. That is precisely what Abba does!

My friend, my precious wife is breathing down my old neck and I am willing to go. I will try and get back perhaps tomorrow if all my toes remain on this side of Glory regarding the other 4 questions. Until then, may His mighty Presence lift us into a few more digits!

Question #5= Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

Your response=

Is "pleasure" your standard for whether God is God? Why not recognize that the standard is that He is living, loving, personal, relational, and good?

My response=

The standard is that which the Father "cherishes" and to the Purpose in His beloved Son the Christ. He takes pleasure in what He has conceived and to that to which He moves in consultation with no one or thing.

And yet, people still reject Him.

Question#6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

Your response=

Jesus died for all. Yet not all will accept his sacrifice.

My response=

Not yet! In the end every knee bows, every tongue confesses IN the Name "You are Lord!"

Let me ask you something. If God were to give everyone who ever lived a second chance after they died to come to Him, why would anyone come to Him in this life? My point being, man is inherently wicked, and would rather not humble himself, and allowing him the opportunity to humble himself after he dies? He'll just put it off until after he dies. And even then, man would still reject God, and become bitter against Him, and harden their hearts in rebellion, and at the point that their "second chance" runs out, they would be even more likely to reject God than they were in this life. Which is counterproductive to 2 Peter 3:9, that all should come to repentance.

So why not a third or a fourth chance then? Why not an infinite number of chances? Because it would allow them to put off their repentance for all eternity, and not fear any consequences for their rebellion, emboldening them to rebel even more, which hardens their heart against God.

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV

Normally, I would use that verse in defence of God's criminal justice system. But it applies (perhaps even more so) to God's demand for eternal justice.

Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him AS GOD is a very healthy thing to do for someone who rejects Him, just like it is a healthy thing to do (especially for the criminal) to force a criminal to acknowledge that what he has done is wrong.

But wait, there is more! Every knee, every tongue in every dimension of our Father's world of the heavens, the earth & the underworld singing in antiphonal chorus of "You are worthy." This worship is not by perfunctory genuflections but arising out of what it means to be IN Christ!

See above.

Jesus died for all. He is the hilasmos of the holos, His propitiation is not for the "especially" ONLY, nor only for the elect. He is the propitiation for the whole enchilada.

See above.

Do you remember the '"silly childish" equation?

"the polus are made sinners">>>>>>>>"the polus are made righteous." Not accounted righteous: made righteous.

No idea what you're talking about.

Question#7=

If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

Your response=

Declaring the end point of a race doesn't mean the person who set the finish line knows who will race, let alone win.

Declaring the destination for a plane doesn't mean the scheduler knows who will be on that plane.

My response=

You talk of a scheduler, I speak of a Scheduler! You speak of a person, I speak of a Person who has made all as the Source, Guide and Goal!

I'm making an analogy.

My point is that God declares the destination for the group called "Those who love Him," and He declares another destination for the group called "Those who hate Him."

Everyone is born into the group of "Those who know Him," but after a certain point, when they reach the age of accountability (which is different for everyone), if they rebel against God, they become part of "Those who hate Him," after which they must humble themselves, and recognize that only God can save them. When they do that, they become "Those who love Him," and are eternally sealed.

Those who die before they rebel against God ("Those who know Him") are a sub-group within "Those who love Him."

Now, as far as I know or am aware, the Bible doesn't talk much about those who die before the age of accountability, so what I'm about to say is most likely conjecture, but founded/based in reason and scripture.

It is my belief (and others') that when those who die before the age of accountability are immediately transported to be with God, and given the opportunity to either accept or reject God. How long they are given, I'm not sure, but I would imagine it's sufficient enough, as God is just.

But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV

Question#8=

Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

Your response=

God cannot be good if, like a sadist and kidnapper, He keeps those who do not want to be with Him in His presence for all eternity. And if God is not good, then He is not God, because God is good.

My response=

Every last one has been made by God and for God. Every last one will be consummated ultimately in Him!

And yet, people still reject Him.

Which brings us back to Question 4 and 6.

His essence is Savour, Love, Spirit and Light, all of which flow in harmony to His Purpose IN Christ Jesus the Lord!

Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

And yet, people will still reject Him.

 

[beloved57]

menno

this thread reveals that many, many intrabiblical cult members reside on TOL who are destined to hell. The non-elect struggle mightily with God having total, sovereign control. Thank you for starting this thread so that heretics would become obvious.

Meaningless comment !

 

[Arthur Brain]

Symbols point to real things.

That's profound.

lain:

Why is it "intangible"?

Death and hell are real things. After these are thrown into the lake of fire, there is no more death or hell.

Death isn't an object that can be picked up and thrown, the symbolism going on is obvious.

Apple and oranges... you cannot focus enough to discuss anything.

The VERSE that you were talking about describes the LORD Jesus Christ as the savior of ALL men.... but then it says SPECIALLY for those that BELIEVE. So I leave it alone and believe it. You try to change it to suit your preconceived ideas.

I take it as it reads, you don't. You believe that God is only the saviour of those that believe, not especially.

He selectively cherry-picks verses and ignores the rest. I don't feel like writing a dissertation at the moment.

Mark 3:28-30 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.​

​

Mark 9:43-45 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:​

If "eternal damnation" is simply ceasing to exist, what's to fear?

Ah, so a loving God needs to threaten his creations to love Him back? True love is not coerced.

God's ways are perfect and you can rebel against Him if you like. It's not going to go well.

Man's aren't and neither are doctrines.

So I'm "set on it"?

I just believe God and His Word.... no matter where that leads.

Apparently you are but I don't really expect people entrenched in a certain belief to question it anyway.

You think that you're wiser than God.

Hardly.

 

[Arthur Brain]

A real place can't be given a name that describes figuratively what the place is like?

It isn't necessarily a "place" at all. God is described as an all consuming fire in the bible, right? That's obviously not literal.

The Bible also doesn't say how God, a supernatural being, created the natural universe. But we know what your position is on that already...

Who's "we" exactly? And what do you "know" my position to be?

Just goes to show why it's important to understand what the Bible ACTUALLY says, and not just what one wants it to say.

A Calvinist would say the exact same thing. People and doctrines huh?

So how about you come up with a better alternative to casting people away from Him who don't want to exist with Him for the rest of eternity? Hmm?

You claim it's such a horrid thing for God to do, but you have yet to provide an alternative.

Pretty much anything would be a better alternative than a God as cruel as that but a God who restores all would be a pretty good place to start. I noticed in response to FL you argued a point that everyone bowing and acknowledging God are forced. Praise is something freely given and if everyone is reconciled to God would that be a problem for you?

 

[Right Divider]

That's profound.

lain:

To you, it probably is.

Death isn't an object that can be picked up and thrown, the symbolism going on is obvious.

Then why can't you understand it?

I take it as it reads, you don't. You believe that God is only the saviour of those that believe, not especially.

Keep on lying... I've already told you at least TWICE that that is NOT what I believe and YET you continue to make this FALSE ACCUSATION.

Ah, so a loving God needs to threaten his creations to love Him back? True love is not coerced.

So you don't like that SCRIPTURE? That's YOUR problem.

Man's aren't and neither are doctrines.

You certainly exemplify that statement.

Apparently you are but I don't really expect people entrenched in a certain belief to question it anyway.

Hilarious.

Hardly.

:singer:

 

[Arthur Brain]

To you, it probably is.

I thought the facetiousness was kinda obvious but never mind...

Then why can't you understand it?

I understand it's obviously not literal.

Keep on lying... I've already told you at least TWICE that that is NOT what I believe and YET you continue to make this FALSE ACCUSATION.

So unbelievers are reconciled to God as well then? Otherwise, there's no lying involved.

So you don't like that SCRIPTURE? That's YOUR problem.

Shout much?

You certainly exemplify that statement.

I question, something you claim to do but there's little evidence of it here.

Hilarious.

It's actually more sad than anything. I've seen people scared to question their belief in case they end up in "hell" because of it.

:singer:

:idunno:

 

[MennoSota]

It would be easier on both of us if you just quote my post and respond with one complete post, instead of not using the QUOTE function at all.



2 Peter 3:9:

ου βραδυνει κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις υμας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Strong's g1014 - Lexical: βούλομαι - Transliteration: boulomai - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: boo'-lom-ahee - Definition: to will, intend, desire, wish. - Origin: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing. - Usage: be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare ethelo. - Translated as (count): desiring (5), I want (4), I purposed (2), intending (2), purposed (2), purposing (2), resolving (2), wished (2), desired (1), has chosen (1), Having willed (1), he was willing (1), he wills (1), I desire (1), I have been desiring (1), might choose (1), might resolve (1), resolve (1), resolves (1), We resolve (1), willing (1), wish you (1), You are willing (1), you intend (1).

The Koine word doesn't make the distinction you make. And in addition to that, the verse states the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

"NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God doesn't will that any should perish. Yet most will, as stated in scripture:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:11-15&version=NKJV



Why would I worry if I know it will happen?



Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him as God is a good thing to do, even if they don't want to.



Again, forcing those to acknowledge God as God is a good thing to do. They aren't worshipping.

Those who love God worship Him willingly.



You can't get around what Revelation 20:11-15 says.

It says that anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. That means those who reject God.



Certain things will happen, and God will prevail in the end, But that doesn't mean that everything is settled, predetermined. You can choose to respond to my posts, or you could choose to completely ignore everything I write. God did not predestine you to do either, but gave you the ability to do either. God is capable of working around those who reject Him.



Again, God wants all to come to repentance, but clearly not all will, as Scripture says "anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."



Ok, and?



Several times in scripture, men of God interceded on other men's behalf, and God changed his mind about destroying them.

One of the best examples of this is King Hezekiah:

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ” - 2 Kings 20:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-6&version=NKJV

Hezekiah was going to die. It wasn't because He was wicked, or because he did anything wrong. He was a righteous king. God told Him (through Isaiah) that He was going to die. But Hezekiah prayed to God, and asked Him to spare his life, and God heard him, and BECAUSE of Hezekiah's prayer, He healed him.

So, my question is this: Are you calling God a liar for telling Hezekiah that he would heal him and allow him to live for 15 more years, after He said that he was going to die? Or, as per the Open View, did the circumstances change, and God, being capable, changed His mind about Hezekiah dying?



And yet, even though He is the Saviour of the world, people still reject Him. Which brings us back to my answer to your next question in the list.



Agreed. And yet, people still reject Him.



Good answer.

This is exactly why God cannot save everyone who ever lived, is living, or ever will live. Only those who accept Him.





And yet, people still reject Him.



Let me ask you something. If God were to give everyone who ever lived a second chance after they died to come to Him, why would anyone come to Him in this life? My point being, man is inherently wicked, and would rather not humble himself, and allowing him the opportunity to humble himself after he dies? He'll just put it off until after he dies. And even then, man would still reject God, and become bitter against Him, and harden their hearts in rebellion, and at the point that their "second chance" runs out, they would be even more likely to reject God than they were in this life. Which is counterproductive to 2 Peter 3:9, that all should come to repentance.

So why not a third or a fourth chance then? Why not an infinite number of chances? Because it would allow them to put off their repentance for all eternity, and not fear any consequences for their rebellion, emboldening them to rebel even more, which hardens their heart against God.

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV

Normally, I would use that verse in defence of God's criminal justice system. But it applies (perhaps even more so) to God's demand for eternal justice.

Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him AS GOD is a very healthy thing to do for someone who rejects Him, just like it is a healthy thing to do (especially for the criminal) to force a criminal to acknowledge that what he has done is wrong.



See above.



See above.



No idea what you're talking about.



I'm making an analogy.

My point is that God declares the destination for the group called "Those who love Him," and He declares another destination for the group called "Those who hate Him."

Everyone is born into the group of "Those who know Him," but after a certain point, when they reach the age of accountability (which is different for everyone), if they rebel against God, they become part of "Those who hate Him," after which they must humble themselves, and recognize that only God can save them. When they do that, they become "Those who love Him," and are eternally sealed.

Those who die before they rebel against God ("Those who know Him") are a sub-group within "Those who love Him."

Now, as far as I know or am aware, the Bible doesn't talk much about those who die before the age of accountability, so what I'm about to say is most likely conjecture, but founded/based in reason and scripture.

It is my belief (and others') that when those who die before the age of accountability are immediately transported to be with God, and given the opportunity to either accept or reject God. How long they are given, I'm not sure, but I would imagine it's sufficient enough, as God is just.

But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV



And yet, people still reject Him.

Which brings us back to Question 4 and 6.



And yet, people will still reject Him.

Your abusive use of 2 Peter 3 has been noted and corrected in the past. You persist in a poor interpretation, which provides poor perspective on the rest of scripture as it pertains to God's Sovereign choice. There is no help I can offer you when you reject the passage for a twisted interpretation.