Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[JudgeRightly]

Questions:

1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

God wants all men to come to know Him. But not all will.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:9&version=NKJV

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

Because the future is not settled, and prayer can affect God.

3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

God's will is that all should come to repentance. It pleases God when someone does, and it pains Him when someone dies rejecting Him.

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

Would forcing someone to live with Him for all eternity be pleasing to God?

5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

Is "pleasure" your standard for whether God is God? Why not recognize that the standard is that He is living, loving, personal, relational, and good?

6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

Jesus died for all. Yet not all will accept his sacrifice.

7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

Declaring the end point of a race doesn't mean the person who set the finish line knows who will race, let alone win.

Declaring the destination for a plane doesn't mean the scheduler knows who will be on that plane.

8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

God cannot be good if, like a sadist and kidnapper, He keeps those who do not want to be with Him in His presence for all eternity.

And if God is not good, then He is not God, because God is good.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear JudgeRightly: Thank you for taking the time to respond to the questions. I will respond to you one question at a time.

#1. The language of the koine is beyond a mere wish, or fancy. He willeth/wills all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I am inclined to believe the will of all wills stands secure! His wishes do as well.

Do not worry about any being dwelling before the consuming fire of our God unwillingly. And, in fact, every knee bows in worship before Him, and every tongue confesses "You are Lord" to the Fathers glory. Such worship by every being, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld are NOT by perfunctory genuflections, but IN/EN the Name of all names. You do know what being in Christ Jesus means? Of course you do!

The scope is clear:

Every being in every dimension of our Fathers Realm singin in antiphonal worhip: every last one!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/2-peter/3-9-compare.html

 

[FineLinen]

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

Your response=

Because the future is not settled, and prayer can affect God.

F.L. responds...

The future is indeed settled. His will & wishes prevails! Prayer out of union with Him "IN Jesus Name" is the union of the creature with the Creator. We do not change or "affect" God, we pray in union with the Name of all names. Such prayer changes nothing, we are simply in accord with the Will from whom the all comes, through whom the all exists & and in whom the all ends. He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all!

 

[FineLinen]

Question #3=

Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

Your response=

God's will is that all should come to repentance. It pleases God when someone does, and it pains Him when someone dies rejecting Him.

F.L. responds=

Remember: the Will of all wills prevails! He is the Lord of the dead and the living. He is not a potntial Saviour; "He is Saviour of all mankind.."

But wait there is more>>>>>>>

He is the Saviour "especially" of those who believe/trust in Him.

Note

He is not the Saviour of only those who believe. He is Saviour of especially those who believe.

Koine monos= only

Malista= especially

 

[FineLinen]

Question #4=

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

Your Response=

Would forcing someone to live with Him for all eternity be pleasing to God?

My response=

Absolutely not!

When I am lifted up I will draw/drag off/ impel with power all mankind onto Me.

There is an old hymn of making us ready to go. That is precisely what Abba does!

My friend, my precious wife is breathing down my old neck and I am willing to go. I will try and get back perhaps tomorrow if all my toes remain on this side of Glory regarding the other 4 questions. Until then, may His mighty Presence lift us into a few more digits!

 

[Right Divider]

Question #4=

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

Your Response=

Would forcing someone to live with Him for all eternity be pleasing to God?

My response=

Absolutely not!

When I am lifted up I will draw/drag off/ impel with power all mankind onto Me.

There is an old hymn of making us ready to go. That is precisely what Abba does!

My friend, my precious wife is breathing down my old neck and I am willing to go. I will try and get back perhaps tomorrow if all my toes remain on this side of Glory regarding the other 4 questions. Until then, may His mighty Presence lift us into a few more digits!

Asking "questions" based on your FALSE PREMISES is childish and silly.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Asking "questions" based on your FALSE PREMISES is childish and silly.

Why is it a false premise?

 

[Right Divider]

Why is it a false premise?

His false premise is that God will save everyone.

Then he reads the Bible to say that, no matter what it actually says.

Then he asks questions based on his already predetermined and false outcome.

 

[Arthur Brain]

He false premise is that God will save everyone.

Then he reads the Bible to say that, no matter what it actually says.

Then he asks questions based on his already predetermined and false outcome.

If God wills it who's to say it won't happen? He's making a lot more sense than you or the thread starter have to say on the matter and his questions are far from "childish".

 

[FineLinen]

My friend: the questions are not based on false premises, nor are they silly or childish! What you must do is show this old man a response to the responses so far. While you prepare to do that, if you choose to do it I have found a wee song to hum along with the effort.

THE HORNETS

Sung to the tune of "This Is Like Heaven To Me.

HERE

When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to time,
And help His own people to win.

The hornets persuaded them that it was best,
To go quickly, and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, No! No!
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce,
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, Oh No,!
They would not compel you' to go 'gainst your will,
But they'd just make you willing to go.

Chorus

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright;
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all know;
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

Chorus

When Moses was sent to lead Israel out,
To Canaan's rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting His Spirit they worshiped a calf,
But refused to obey God's Command.
God did not compel them to go to the land,
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years,
'Till He got them all ready to go.

Chorus

When Balaam was sent to the Moabite king,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God's Will to obey.
God can use any man, since He used Balaam's mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

Chorus

 

[Right Divider]

If God wills it who's to say it won't happen? He's making a lot more sense than you or the thread starter have to say on the matter and his questions are far from "childish".

IF that was what the scripture MEANS.... but it's not because there are plenty of other scriptures that contradict that notion.

But thanks for your concern about preaching the Word correctly.

 

[Arthur Brain]

IF that was what the scripture MEANS.... but it's not because there are plenty of other scriptures that contradict that notion.

But thanks for your concern about preaching the Word correctly.

It's ironic that you choose 1Tim 4:10 as part of your signature when you say this. You're hardly the arbiter of what is "correct" either. Repugnant doctrines should be questioned and any that dictate that people suffer interminably certainly so.

 

[Right Divider]

It's ironic that you choose 1Tim 4:10 as part of your signature when you say this.

Apparently you do not understand what that verse means either.

You're hardly the arbiter of what is "correct" either.

Please show the post where I claimed to "the arbiter of what is correct".

Repugnant doctrines should be questioned and any that dictate that people suffer interminably certainly so.

Go talk to God, your argument is with Him and not me.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Apparently you do not understand what that verse means either.

It's pretty straightforward unless especially somehow translates into "only".

Please show the post where I claimed to "the arbiter of what is correct".

Well you're not exactly shy of saying other people have "false premises" are you or going on about preaching "the word" correctly? Are you so sure that FL is wrong for you to be accusing him of being incorrect?

Go talk to God, your argument is with Him and not me.

No it's not, not that I expect you to question what you believe regardless. One of the more insidious aspects of religious doctrine is that questioning is discouraged and acceptance of anything, no matter how vile and cruel to be pretty much mindlessly accepted. Been there...

 

[Right Divider]

It's pretty straightforward unless especially somehow translates into "only".

Nope. But it's clearly making a distinction between Christ's role for some and for others.

Well you're not exactly shy of saying other people have "false premises" are you or going on about preaching "the word" correctly? Are you so sure that FL is wrong for you to be accusing him of being incorrect?

Look in a mirror.

No it's not, not that I expect you to question what you believe regardless.

I always question what I believe. That is how one gets to the truth.

One of the more insidious aspects of religious doctrine is that questioning is discouraged and acceptance of anything, no matter how vile and cruel to be pretty much mindlessly accepted. Been there...

So says you.

What makes your doctrine better than mine or anyone else's?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Nope. But it's clearly making a distinction between Christ's role for some and for others.

If it's only believers that are spared from "hell" or the like then Jesus isn't the saviour of all men, especially or otherwise.

Look in a mirror.

Likewise. You're the one saying that FL is arguing from a false premise so set out as to why otherwise your word doesn't mean much. He's been detailed, put forward a position that's not only bereft of cruelty but also affords a loving God to keep all of His creation, something you deny God of being able to even if He wills it.

I always question what I believe. That is how one gets to the truth.

If you're always questioning it then you can't be sure you've arrived at the truth now then can you?

So says you.

What makes your doctrine better than mine or anyone else's?

Sure, from experience. I used to attend a fundamentalist church in my youth and questioning set dogma was not encouraged, so much so that I was given the choice to either accept the teaching or leave, so I left.

I don't have a "doctrine".

 

[ok doser]

I don't have a "doctrine".

of course you do

it's a Godless secular liberal doctrine

 

[Right Divider]

If it's only believers that are spared from "hell" or the like then Jesus isn't the saviour of all men, especially or otherwise.

Looks like faulty logic on your part, since the Bible clearly states on a number of occasions that some will end up in the lake of fire that never ends.

He's the savior of all men even if they reject Him and end up in the lake of fire.

Their rejection of Him and the salvation that He offers does not diminish HIS role as their savior.

Likewise. You're the one saying that FL is arguing from a false premise so set out as to why otherwise your word doesn't mean much.

That sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

He's been detailed, put forward a position that's not only bereft of cruelty but also affords a loving God to keep all of His creation, something you deny God of being able to even if He wills it.

He was cherry-picking verses and completely ignoring MANY, MANY others.

If you're always questioning it then you can't be sure you've arrived at the truth now then can you?

Nobody but God has the perfect knowledge of the truth, not even you.

Sure, from experience. I used to attend a fundamentalist church in my youth and questioning set dogma was not encouraged, so much so that I was given the choice to either accept the teaching or leave, so I left.

Sorry for your experience, but that does not mean that truth does not exist.

I don't have a "doctrine".

Everyone has doctrine. If you think not, you're fooling yourself.

Doctrines are beliefs and you've got plenty.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Looks like faulty logic on your part, since the Bible clearly states on a number of occasions that some will end up in the lake of fire that never ends.

He's the savior of all men even if they reject Him and end up in the lake of fire.

Their rejection of Him and the salvation that He offers does not diminish HIS role as their savior.

Do you think that this lake of fire is literal? Care to explain how death and hell are cast into it? As with Revelation in general it's steeped in metaphor and symbolism and essentially you've concocted a very convoluted way of twisting "especially" into "only". If it's only believers who are spared, then whatever you believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" to be, Jesus is only the saviour of people who believe. Might as well argue that a lifeguard is the saviour of all people he's rescued including those who drown.

That sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

Not sure what was tripping you up exactly. Specify as to why FL is arguing from a "false premise" and why he's incorrect and you aren't.

He was cherry-picking verses and completely ignoring MANY, MANY others.

He seems to be rather clued up on the original texts and translations and is certainly more detailed in his arguments than you've been in turn.

Nobody but God has the perfect knowledge of the truth, not even you.

I don't claim to have that anyway but you obviously think you have enough to call other people's positions false premises.

Sorry for your experience, but that does not mean that truth does not exist.

Unfortunately it's pretty common in the more fundamentalist areas of religion. All sorts of barbarity and cruelty can be "justified" under the banner of "truth". I've spoke to hardcore Calvinists who would tell you that they'd rejoice in not only their own offspring being tortured if they weren't part of the "elect" but would gladly bask in viewing their suffering as well.

Everyone has doctrine. If you think not, you're fooling yourself.

Doctrines are beliefs and you've got plenty.

Not any hard line religious one I don't. I don't ascribe to anything that blindly negates reason thanks.

 

[ok doser]

I don't ascribe to anything that blindly negates reason thanks.

sure you do

Godless secular liberal doctrine