Dating is a Failed Modern Experiment

Status
Not open for further replies.

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
"Well, if it's being presented as a research paper, then presumably an academic one. If she were writing an opinion article then it shouldn't have been formatted as a paper."
You researched the type of paper assigned before your critique of her style? :rolleyes:

"...[T]here's very little evidence of her having read any material opposed to her argument..."
Living in a sex-obsessed culture does not give her an idea of the liberal's position? Now she is required to argue for the liberal? Is she permitted to hold another view?

"...a body of quoted research does not a convincing argument make."
Backward sentence former you are Yoda.

"If she were to hand this paper in at a university I can almost guarantee it wouldn't get higher than a 2:2..."
A liberal university? You're being generous.


"It's just not a very well-argued essay."
She is free to share her opinion as it is a leftist view (Eccl 10:2). :Shimei:


[You don't like her opinion.] "I couldn't care less what her opinion is."
What motivates you to oppose her?
 
Last edited:

MrRadish

New member
You researched the type of paper assigned before your critique of her style? :rolleyes:

The type of paper assigned is obvious because of the academic paper format. And I've read enough real academic papers to know that a lot of what she said is inappropriate for a school essay, let alone a genuine piece of scholarship.

Living in a sex-obsessed culture does not give her an idea of the liberal's position?

No, it doesn't. In fact, your statement is meaningless. You might as well say that knowing someone who's sexually repressed is all you need to have a realistic grasp of conservatism.

Now she is required to argue for the liberal?

Any good essay will show awareness and consideration of other viewpoints, even if it proceeds to demonstrate why the writer finds them invalid. As I said before, an essay written in favour of dating that completely failed to acknowledge any possible arguments against it would be equally weak.

Is she permitted to hold another view?

Of course she is. The point remains, the argument she's presented for it is weak.

Backward sentence former you are Yoda.

I can use the Force, too. It's handy for household chores.

A liberal university? You're being generous.

You're right, I am being generous.

She is free to share her opinion as it is a leftist view

I wish the freedom to share an opinion automatically meant the ability to write a good essay. However, it doesn't.

(Eccl 10:2).

Yes, the clear and obvious meaning of this passage, written thousands of years B.C., is an allusion to the 1789 National Assembly of France.


What motivates you to oppose her?

The fact the she and others are being misled into thinking that she's written a good essay, and that exaggeration, unsubstantiated assertion and highly subjective terminology are all staples of a successful academic endeavour. There are some excellent defences of courtship and chaperoning that've been written; this 'paper' is not one of them. While the lass should definitely be encouraged to continue to write and to apply intellectual rigour to her thoughts, it's not going to get her or those who seek to be like her anywhere if they keep being told that badly-written essays are excellent work.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
[You researched the type of paper assigned before your critique of her style? :rolleyes:] "The type of paper assigned is obvious because of the academic paper format."
What type of paper was she assigned?

"...And I've read enough real academic papers to know that a lot of what she said is inappropriate for a school essay..."
So you say. Many professors like to hear their student's opinions.
"...let alone a genuine piece of scholarship."

She is a sixteen year old student not a scholar.

[Living in a sex-obsessed culture does not give her an idea of the liberal's position?] "No, it doesn't. In fact, your statement is meaningless."
The statement is either true or it is false. It is not meaningless.

[Now she is required to argue for the liberal?] "Any good essay will show awareness and consideration of other viewpoints..."
Are you certain that she was assigned an argumentative or analytical essay not a cause and effect or interpretive essay?

"As I said before, an essay written in favour of dating that completely failed to acknowledge any possible arguments against it would be equally weak."
Cite the source you used to determine her assignment. May we have an example of your best work at age 16? We could compare and contrast.

[What motivates you to oppose her?] "The fact the she and others are being misled into thinking that she's written a good essay..."
So your motivation is personal.

"I wish the freedom to share an opinion automatically meant the ability to write a good essay. However, it doesn't...t's not going to get her or those who seek to be like her anywhere if they keep being told that badly-written essays are excellent work."
If you were her teacher what grade would you give her?






 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Bottomline, it was a mediocre if earnest effort made by a young lady who doesn't seem to know much about what she's talking about.
 

MrRadish

New member
What type of paper was she assigned?

By the format, it looks as though she was imitating an academic journal article.

So you say. Many professors like to hear their student's opinions.

But an objective essay, unsupported by the appropriate factual backup, is an inappropriate medium to express them, especially if it's then presented to the public as an actual paper.

She is a sixteen year old student not a scholar.

In that case, Enyart shouldn't be treating her work like it's a real paper.

The statement is either true or it is false. It is not meaningless.

'A sex-obsessed society'. What does that mean? Pretty much every society has been sex-obsessed in some way. Victorian England was one of the most prudish cultures in history but it was still sex-obsessed, just in an inverse way.

It should also be noted that not all liberals have the same opinion.

Are you certain that she was assigned an argumentative or analytical essay not a cause and effect or interpretive essay?

If it was a cause and effect essay then it was extremely simplistic, failed to define its terms, and lacked objectivity in its treatment of the subject. As for it being an interpretive essay, it's about a societal phenomenon rather than a piece of art or writing, uses statistics to attempt to back up its points, and asserts its conclusions as facts, so... probably not.

Cite the source you used to determine her assignment.

It's obviously trying to be an academic journal article on sociology. It's apparent from the abstract and from the format.

May we have an example of your best work at age 16? We could compare and contrast.

The difference is that when I was 16, I didn't pretend that my essays were pieces of serious academic scholarship, and neither did ridiculous fundamentalist talk show hosts.

So your motivation is personal.

Obviously the girl is never going to read this discussion, but yes, I have a personal objection to Enyart describing this piece of schoolwork as a 'paper' and acting as though it's much better than it is. It's dishonest, and it's misleading to the girl. As I said, I also think it's a shame that people are congratulated for producing work that fails to consider other viewpoints and treats subjective terms as indisputable, because if they don't do it when writing then the chances are they don't do it in real life either.

If you were her teacher what grade would you give her?

It depends. At GCSE, a decent grade and certainly an A for effort, although I would definitely point out that while the referencing and use of sources is very good, it's lacking in certain fundamental qualities of an essay. Basically, what Granite said.

More to the point, however, if she were to suggest it was a publishable piece of graduate-level research (as Enyart seems to be suggesting by calling it a paper) then obviously it would fail miserably.

It's quite a reasonable essay for a 16-year-old, per se. But that's all it is. My main objection is to Enyart treating it as something more.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
So you say. Many professors like to hear their student's opinions.

Quite true, but they need to be defensible...and if an argument doesn't hold water a good instructor will say so.

She is a sixteen year old student not a scholar.

She's trying awfully hard to sound like one and Enyart treated her as such. And how would you define your own personal definitions of "student" and "scholar"?

Are you certain that she was assigned an argumentative or analytical essay not a cause and effect or interpretive essay?

She didn't succeed no matter which option she was assigned.

If you were her teacher what grade would you give her?

Probably a C-.
 

MaryContrary

New member
Hall of Fame
My husband and I courted, in a sense. We were hardly strangers to one another, having been best friends for a good, long time. We knew one another better than most lovers we'd had. So you might think there was little "getting to know you" involved there but...yeah, not so.

Courtship is rather like dating...only zero physicality before marriage. Sex is out, which has a significant impact on our "dates". In dating, typically, you're simultaneously trying to determine if you want the other person as your lover while trying to convince them that they do. Absent that...you're left pretty much with the "get to know you" stuff. So it's just a whole other animal.

For us that amounted to getting to know one another as potential mates. Spouses, specifically. And having never really considered one another in that light, certainly not any deep, serious consideration, that "get to know you" was just that. As friends and we knew one another very well. As spouses...wow, not at all.

Which, btw, I came to the conclusion that, no matter how well you know someone, unless you're married to them you simply don't know them well enough to know if you want to be married to them. In the end I decided the real question was whether and to what degree the other person (and yourself, really) are willing to commit. Everything pretty much hinges on that. Barring the obvious killing points, and assuming you're dealing with even a reasonably well adjusted person, that's really the factor you're dealing with.

So...no romance, no sex. Both, we figured, were wasted pre-marriage as well as, and probably more importantly, horrible distractions from the real question we were tackling. Did we, each of us, want the other as a spouse? 90% of our "dates" consisted of long, detailed, deep discussions about anything and everything related to marriage and our roles in it. Which shouldn't suggest we didn't have fun. We've always had fun together. And we did things together in the midst of all that just for fun. Just not really counting that as part of the courtship stuff, you understand.

But...though we didn't start out bothering with chaperones and such (didn't really need them, we figured)...we ended up volunteering a couple of good friends for that toward the end there. Interestingly, it turns out deciding the person you're courting will very probably be the person you marry...well, let's just say we started drafting chaperones after all. And stopped even visiting one another without friends along. Partly, of course, for appearance's sake and partly...well, for the other. Ahem. And don't let that suggest we acted like a couple of dumb teenagers or anything. We're just prone to take precautions when a potential difficulty presents itself.

All in all though, I may not be able to speak directly to this topic really. Ours was rather an unconventional courtship from beginning to end, on account of all kinds of factors. Most courtships, as I understand, the two involved don't know one another well, if at all. And they typically are much more structured, dealing with folks still under someone or other's else's roof and beholden to them.

Really, boiling it down, I think the main difference between dating and courting is this: when dating you're looking for a lover and when courting, a spouse. On that point alone it should be obvious courting is the superior method of finding someone to marry. Dating rather removes marriage from the picture altogether. At best it's something that may happen, possibly, at some point down the road long after you've fornicated for a few months at least. It's certainly not the goal and using it in that manner seems a little ridiculous.

Like using a hammer to drive a screw. I mean, you could. And it'd probably take a while. Require a few tries maybe but...why not just use a screwdriver? :liberals:
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I will take issue with only one part of what you asked, though. Ideal mate? No such thing. If you find an "ideal mate," stay away from them... or you'll ruin their life. LOL

Good post. This part made me think of Bill Murray in "Ground Hog Day" When she is rattling off all the attributes the ideal man should have. He said " This is a man we are talking about right?"
 

elohiym

Well-known member
I read Leah Geiser's paper and enjoyed it.

I must say: hat's off to Leah's father and mother!

:e4e:
 

elohiym

Well-known member
How many people are really using dating as a means to find a spouse?

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority in the U.S. are. In some other cultures I imagine not as much.

My wife and I used courtship.

She was a virgin when we married.

We met through our missionary work at the church we belonged to.
 

Memento Mori

New member
How many people are really using dating as a means to find a spouse?

I certainly do and am, actually.

My current girlfriend and I have plans to marry after college and move to Germany (or at least somewhere in Europe). Also we've been dating for three years now (so you don't think it's one of those lovy-dovy infatuation situations).

Why? What method do you use? Dousing rods?
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
How many people are really using dating as a means to find a spouse?

I did. So did every one of my friends who are currently married.

Are we supposed to go with the whole classified section route, or something? Maybe your definition of dating differs from mine but yes, for many (most) of those I know who are currently dating or looking for a partner, marriage is indeed the ultimate end game.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
[Many professors like to hear their student's opinions.] "But an objective essay..."
Cite your source. How do you know what type of paper was assigned?

[She is a sixteen year old student not a scholar.] "In that case, Enyart shouldn't be treating her work like it's a real paper."
Her work is a real paper--a real paper from a real student. Did Enyart misrepresent who she was and what she was doing? Did he misrepresent her age?

'A sex-obsessed society'. What does that mean? ...It should also be noted that not all liberals have the same opinion."
Who said all liberals hold leftists views?

[May we have an example of your best work at age 16? We could compare and contrast.] "The difference is that when I was 16, I didn't pretend that my essays were pieces of serious academic scholarship, and neither did ridiculous fundamentalist talk show hosts."
Then you will not mind sharing an example of your work. Please provide an example of this girl claiming that her work is scholarly.



[So your motivation is personal.] "Obviously the girl is never going to read this discussion, but yes..."
Ok.

[If you were her teacher what grade would you give her?] "It depends. At GCSE, a decent grade and certainly an A for effort, although I would definitely point out that while the referencing and use of sources is very good, it's lacking in certain fundamental qualities of an essay..."
What quality does her paper lack? Not agreeing with you? Would she get the A+ had she attempted to forward your leftist view?



 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
"...f an argument doesn't hold water..."
Her argument does hold water. Her view (Jn 10:10) is godly and it leads life and health.

"She's trying awfully hard to sound like one [a scholar] and Enyart treated her as such."
Do you mean she is doing her school work? Enyart treated her with respect. He made no claim that she was a scholar. He interviewed her. She gave her opinion based on her research.

[Are you certain that she was assigned an argumentative or analytical essay not a cause and effect or interpretive essay?] "She didn't succeed no matter which option she was assigned."
Of course she didn't succeed to your mind. You are a leftist (Eccl 10:2). All views are permitted except for those that differ from yours.

See:

Tactics of the Left

[If you were her teacher what grade would you give her?] "Probably a C-."
Get your kids out of the godless public schools. Granite (a Satanist) is not unlike liberal professors at most universities.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Her argument does hold water. Her view (Jn 10:10) is godly and it leads life and health.

Snake, the last few posts by Radish in particular were a rebuttal of this girl's "arguments." You seem to want to play Uh Huh Nuh Uh (which isn't surprising because you can't think much for yourself).

Do you mean she is doing her school work? Enyart treated her with respect. He made no claim that she was a scholar. He interviewed her. She gave her opinion based on her research.

Her "research" was childish and amateurish. Not surprising considering her age and isolation...but that Enyart was so taken by it says a lot.

You are a leftist.

No, I'm not. You, however, do seem to be a fairly brazen and careless liar.

Granite (a Satanist)

Nope.

is not unlike liberal professors at most universities.

You ever even stepped foot on a university campus? Much less attended one?
 

MrRadish

New member
Cite your source. How do you know what type of paper was assigned?

SD, I've answered this question repeatedly. Asking it again and again and again is a waste of your time and mine. The format is indicative of the type of essay that was assigned. The only way that the exact wording would change this is if it actually said, "In the format of an academic paper, and using a blend of formal and colloquial language, give your personal opinion on dating. Pursue one line of inquiry; do not discuss.". But a) that's ridiculous and b) it would render the essay completely useless.

Her work is a real paper--a real paper from a real student.

And not an academic, which is how it's presented, and how Enyart appears to be treating it. The term 'paper' is generally understood to mean a work published in an academic journal.

Did Enyart misrepresent who she was and what she was doing? Did he misrepresent her age?

He misrepresented the weight and importance of the essay by calling it a paper and treating it as one.

Who said all liberals hold leftists views?

There isn't one, single, unified set of left-wing beliefs, just like there isn't a single, unified set of right-wing ones.

Then you will not mind sharing an example of your work.

Straw man. The standard of my own work at that age has nothing to do with it, because my objection isn't to her having written a duff essay (although that's something she should improve on). It's to Bob Enyart treating it like it's proper scholarship.

Please provide an example of this girl claiming that her work is scholarly.

See above. Calling it a paper.



What quality does her paper lack? Not agreeing with you?

Did you actually read any of my posts? I already said in minute detail, with examples, of what's wrong with the essay.

Would she get the A+ had she attempted to forward your leftist view?

:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top