Creation vs. Evolution

[DavisBJ]

Haha..... Well those 'ignorant' nomads wrote some pretty awesome literature. Its quite amazing how 40+ authors over a span of 1400 years, more than 2000 years ago, wrote such historically and scientifically accurate Books.

It’s quite amazing how a cult like creationism can live in denial so long, since no scientific university in the world thinks those “scientifically accurate books” are credible.

We are waiting still, several months after you said there was massive evidence of a global flood, for you to move beyond the rhetoric and produce the evidence. Was that evidence of the same caliber as Cadry’s prophecy of the now overdue rapture?

 

[Rosenritter]

6days, this is a fascinating technique you employed. Michael asks about volcanoes making new islands, and about the possibility of channels or fountains of water below the surface. Mike was unusually frank and honest when he admitted at the end of his post that (for him, at least): “This is really deep.”

In response you just provide a link for each subject. The links are fine, but for Mike, with his abysmal background in science and a dedication to staying close-minded to anything he objects to, they are the equivalent of smearing the smell of a steak on a piece of wood and putting it in front of a hungry bulldog. He goes nuts, never realizing what he is gnawing on isn’t what it smells like at all.

The creation of volcanic islands has been well understood for many decades, and has left evidence of processes spanning millions of years.

I read your linked article about subterranean water carefully, did you? I suspect not, since it says nothing new beyond what we discussed last time you subjected us to this illustration of your lack of understanding about the subject (see post 14242 and the posts following). Clearly the last time this was discussed in this thread, it made such a little impression on Mike that he brings it up as though it was a new question for him.

Since neither you nor any other of your cult have shown any way for that deep entrapped water to come to the surface in time scales of a few thousand years, then all you are doing is further deluding poor Mr. Cadry. Not a nice thing to do to one of your own.

God has been listening to this entire thread and he says that the creationists are right.

2 Peter 3:3-6 KJV
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. [5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: [6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 

[patrick jane]

God has been listening to this entire thread and he says that the creationists are right.

2 Peter 3:3-6 KJV
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. [5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: [6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

good post Rosenritter

 

[Rosenritter]

It’s quite amazing how a cult like creationism can live in denial so long, since no scientific university in the world thinks those “scientifically accurate books” are credible.

We are waiting still, several months after you said there was massive evidence of a global flood, for you to move beyond the rhetoric and produce the evidence. Was that evidence of the same caliber as Cadry’s prophecy of the now overdue rapture?

There are stories from many cultures around the world with similar features in this regard. In the Hawaiian version the man was named Nunu. He and his family were saved from worldwide flood, animals also I believe. Any reasonable theories as to how so many separated cultures could come up with such similar stories?

I have a theory. Maybe there was a worldwide flood, and those peoples come from the descendants of the survivors.

 

[DavisBJ]

God has been listening to this entire thread and he says that the creationists are right.

And with an equal amount of evidence, I assert that other have also been listening to this thread – Sauron, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus. They all think the creationists are goofballs.

… 2 Peter 3:3-6 KJV
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. [5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: [6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

You got anything more substantial than quotes from tales handed down from an ancient illiterate society?

 

[6days+]

It’s quite amazing how a cult like creationism can live in denial so long, since no scientific university in the world thinks those “scientifically accurate books” are credible.

Its quite amazing how the cult of evolutionism relies on the logical fallacy of appeal to popular opinion. "In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."".




Fortunately the great scientists throughout history were not swayed by popular opinion.

We are waiting still, several months after you said there was massive evidence of a global flood, for you to move beyond the rhetoric and produce the evidence.

Months? No...you have been presented with evidence the last few years. Perhaps you don't understand what evidence is. Evidence is the geological layers....fossils....dating methods...historical records.

 

[DavisBJ]

There are stories from many cultures around the world with similar features in this regard. In the Hawaiian version the man was named Nunu. He and his family were saved from worldwide flood, animals also I believe. Any reasonable theories as to how so many separated cultures could come up with such similar stories?

Gilgamesh

 

[6days+]

You got anything more substantial than quotes from tales handed down from an ancient illiterate society?

It simply is one of the many evidences. Your comment of "illiterate" reveals a lack of knowledge on the topic, as well mas a bias that rejects interpretations of evidence that don't fit your belief system.

 

[6days+]

Gilgamesh? yes another evidence of the flood, although they got the details wrong.

 

[DavisBJ]

Its quite amazing how the cult of evolutionism relies on the logical fallacy of appeal to popular opinion.

Your innate hatred for evolution is showing again. The science that is against your dogma far transcends just biology.

And your need to describe the level of unity within modern science as just an “appeal to popular opinion” shows how little regard for truth you really have. Some ideas in science, even today, are unpopular with the public, and within the scientific establishment it is data and evidence that has been the deciding factor between opposing ideas, not how popular it is.

Fortunately the great scientists throughout history were not swayed by popular opinion.

And more than ever, the premier scientists opt against ancient Bible fables.

Perhaps you don't understand what evidence is. Evidence is the geological layers....fossils....dating methods...historical records.

Thanks for making your simplistic ignorance so clear. Nobody disputes that there are fossils, or layers, or dating methods. Now how about going a little above a kindergarten answer and telling us specifically what it is about the layers, fossils, dating, that you think shows there was a global flood?

 

[6days]

Nobody disputes that there are fossils, or layers, or dating methods. Now how about going a little above a kindergarten answer and telling us specifically what it is about the layers, fossils, dating, that you think shows there was a global flood?

Besides being answered often in this thread, its been answered and discussed in many other threads such as....

Coitus Interruptus... Flirty Turtles, Fossils and the Flood

The fossil record shows there never was evolution.

Scientists baffled by a perfect example of Biblical kinds

Noah's Ark & post-flood speciation

 

[Rosenritter]

And with an equal amount of evidence, I assert that other have also been listening to this thread – Sauron, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus. They all think the creationists are goofballs.

You got anything more substantial than quotes from tales handed down from an ancient illiterate society?

I didn't hear your theory as to how the same theme would have been repeated with so many matching details among diverse separated societies?

So while we wait (and we might wait a while since I doubt you have weighed anthropological evidence yet) here's another evidence based on mathematics:

Known fact: human population of earth is increasing. This pattern has been charted and forms a nice predictable curve. Follow that curve backwards and it stops about 4400 years ago...

... Which just happens to agree with the historical evidence from Genesis that tells us our current population descends from eight survivors of a worldwide flood approximately 4400 years ago.

Funny, that.

By the way, assuming you are actually serious about scientific investigation and not just rattling off an ignorant opinion crusade for your chosen team, you ARE going to investigate the anthropological angle yourself now, right? And give a report so that we know you are looking at the same data?

I would hate to give you too much at once so that you couldn't keep up.

 

[DavisBJ]

I didn't hear your theory as to how the same theme would have been repeated with so many matching details among diverse separated societies?

I haven’t seen you specify what these “matching details” you allude to are. Since almost every place experiences major floods occasionally, and they are devastating to the population, I see nothing surprising about them appearing in the histories of diverse places. Now you need to show that there are common elements in these flood accounts that point towards them all describing the same flood, even though they are widely distributed geographically.

So while we wait (and we might wait a while since I doubt you have weighed anthropological evidence yet) here's another evidence based on mathematics:

Known fact: human population of earth is increasing. This pattern has been charted and forms a nice predictable curve. Follow that curve backwards and it stops about 4400 years ago...

... Which just happens to agree with the historical evidence from Genesis that tells us our current population descends from eight survivors of a worldwide flood approximately 4400 years ago.

Funny, that.

Specifics? Show (or link to) the data and charts that you say supports your assertion.

By the way, assuming you are actually serious about scientific investigation and not just rattling off an ignorant opinion crusade for your chosen team, you ARE going to investigate the anthropological angle yourself now, right? And give a report so that we know you are looking at the same data?

I may. The subjects that come up in these discussions are varied enough that often –too often – amateurs jump in with poorly formed arguments. Since biology is not a specialty of mine, I am willing to see what the arguments are, but I would necessarily have to rely on actual experts. Do you have a solid background in biological science?

I would hate to give you too much at once so that you couldn't keep up.

At least you are not bashful about thumping your chest. Godzilla?

 

[DavisBJ]

Besides being answered often in this thread…

Since I have loosely followed this thread for some time, and I don’t recall any purported global flood evidence that stood up under scrutiny, then I am forced to think you are bluffing. If you disagree, then show me specifically where that evidence was presented in this thread.

 

[Tyrathca]

I didn't hear your theory as to how the same theme would have been repeated with so many matching details among diverse separated societies?

I can have a crack, a reasonable answer is quite simple. Floods are very common natural disaster which can wipe the (local) earth of all traces of human civilisation. Thus it makes a fairly natural choice of apocalyptic myth in ancient culture. Gods related to animals, weather and geology were also common but I don't see you claiming they are evidence of other gods... A bit hypocritical I think.

That and many of the cultures blatantly copied another myth epic (including your bible). Which has already been me tinned.

Known fact: human population of earth is increasing. This pattern has been charted and forms a nice predictable curve. Follow that curve backwards and it stops about 4400 years ago...

You have to make a lot of assumptions about growth and population to fudge the numbers into that pattern.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

 

[rstrats]

Rosenritter,
re: "I have a theory. Maybe there was a worldwide flood, and those peoples come from the descendants of the survivors."

Just tossing another thought into the mix. As you note, there were 8 survivors. But from their personal experience they couldn't have known that a flood was world wide since they were confined to a limited geographical area. So it seems that any descendantially handed down stories could not be supported by any actual observations of the original players.

 

[Jonahdog]

Known fact: human population of earth is increasing. This pattern has been charted and forms a nice predictable curve. Follow that curve backwards and it stops about 4400 years ago...

... Which just happens to agree with the historical evidence from Genesis that tells us our current population descends from eight survivors of a worldwide flood approximately 4400 years ago.

This paper suggests something different faculty.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/210a/readings/kremer1993.pdf.

google Michael Kremer population growth. I've not read the whole paper, the math is beyond me. Kremer suggests the world's human population was about 7 million 4000 years ago. Perhaps you can read it and analyze it "properly" for us. Or, if you really have the intellectual curiosity, track him down and find out where he went wrong.

Report back for extra credit.

 

[Rosenritter]

I can have a crack, a reasonable answer is quite simple. Floods are very common natural disaster which can wipe the (local) earth of all traces of human civilisation. Thus it makes a fairly natural choice of apocalyptic myth in ancient culture. Gods related to animals, weather and geology were also common but I don't see you claiming they are evidence of other gods... A bit hypocritical I think.

That and many of the cultures blatantly copied another myth epic (including your bible). Which has already been me tinned.
You have to make a lot of assumptions about growth and population to fudge the numbers into that pattern.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

As a disclaimer I am on vacation at my in-laws house and limited to what I can present on my phone. As to flood legend research I found a site that has done a lot of the work already of gathering and comparing:

http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

You could use other sources too (Wikipedia even listed one of the East Indian legends that had flood, boat built, eight survivors) but would you look at that please? Saves me lots of typing with my thumbs.

There are sufficient similarities to discount the "local floods" theory. Rather it favors the "copied" explanation.

 

[Rosenritter]

This paper suggests something different faculty.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/210a/readings/kremer1993.pdf.

google Michael Kremer population growth. I've not read the whole paper, the math is beyond me. Kremer suggests the world's human population was about 7 million 4000 years ago. Perhaps you can read it and analyze it "properly" for us. Or, if you really have the intellectual curiosity, track him down and find out where he went wrong.

Report back for extra credit.

Again on cell phone for another week, not great for pulling apart complex PDFs. But even the number you gave is in the right ballpark. Round down a bit and then move backwards about 400 years, then account for the longer lifespans reported during that time frame...

But as you (or someone else) said there is a lot of potential for vague estimates, which could go both ways. Still the growth patterns observed favor flood theory and are compatible.

Here's something else for consideration. What is the estimated age of the oldest living thing on this planet? There is a bristlecone pine tree that is guessed to be about 4400-4800 years old. There is enough variation in tree ring formation form that to be in the 4400 range. Again, you would expect a worldwide flood to destroy older trees. Not saying that is a stand alone proof but one more item that should start to weigh on your radar.

Honestly there are lots of flood evidences. Oceans that are still getting saltier, dead oysters on tops of mountains, abundance of fossils showing mass catastrophic deaths by water.... Fossilized whales standing on end showing they were buried quickly... But whether anyone will pay any attention is usually a matter of choice. Which is why I have no intention of beating my head against a wall against stubbornness or conceit.

If you are interested and want to be objective try laying out a chart of for and against arguments and try to be able to argue both sides... By that I mean make sure that you know the logic of both sides and have access to the best data both has to offer.

Someone said something about data earlier in the thread... I didn't read far back. Happened to see something saying there was no evidence for worldwide flood. That's wrong. You may try to interpret the evidence differently (and the humanistic religion insists that you must) but there is evidence. Anyone that says otherwise hasn't looked very hard.

Anyway, good luck.

 

[Stripe]

This paper suggests something different faculty.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/210a/readings/kremer1993.pdf. google Michael Kremer population growth. I've not read the whole paper, the math is beyond me. Kremer suggests the world's human population was about 7 million 4000 years ago. Perhaps you can read it and analyze it "properly" for us. Or, if you really have the intellectual curiosity, track him down and find out where he went wrong.

Ah, a Darwinist brave enough to play with numbers in public.

Seven million people 4,000 years ago would mean a doubling period of more than 400 years to get the number of people we have today, way longer than measured doubling periods of human populations.

Report back for extra credit.