Creation vs. Evolution

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Derf

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By the way, the serpent and the donkey spoke telepathically, not orally. Don't you know? Adam and Eve didn't even have a language to speak except they knew by instinct speaking. Just when you go to Heaven, you will not speak with your lips, because you won't have them anymore. You will be a spirit residing on a star instead. There is also no marriage in Heaven. From what I understand, there is not even male or female in Heaven, but instead every one is the same being worshiping our Creator.

Hi Michael,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but be careful about statements like in the quote above.

I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that the serpent or the donkey spoke telepathically. Or that we won't have lips in heaven. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, and He certainly had lips and used them right before He ascended. Isaiah needed to have his lips purified because his were unclean, but it doesn't say he stopped using them.

I don't think we'll be just spirits, as Job said he would see his creator in the flesh (Job 19:26).

Jesus said there's no marrying or giving in marriage in the resurrection, that we will be like the angels in heaven. But we don't know that there are no female angels. What the purpose would be of having a male/female distinction with no marriage (and no sex as a possible extrapolation, I suppose?) intrigues me, but it goes beyond what we've been told in the Bible.

If we extrapolate from the Word, our extrapolations need to be checked against the Word, and I don't think there's good evidence for those things you said.

Blessings.
 

MichaelCadry

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Question for anyone - Wouldn't the big bang theory necessitate the biggest, most massive black hole in creation ? Supernova explosions and the like are the only time new elements are created, and they all leave neutron star and black hole corpses. The big bang should be the same on an extremely massive scale.



Dear patrick jane,

I'm posting out of sequence because I went to this page first. Patrick, I don't know the answer to your question, to be honest. It is an excellent question, though. It's possible someone else on this thread could shed some light on it. We'll see! I guess, yes, there could be other elements out there that we don't have. Sounds interesting!

God Bless You In So Many Ways!!

Michael

:angel: :cloud9: :angel: :cloud9: :angel: :rapture:


{To reply, start here}
 

MichaelCadry

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Hi Michael,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but be careful about statements like in the quote above.

I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that the serpent or the donkey spoke telepathically. Or that we won't have lips in heaven. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, and He certainly had lips and used them right before He ascended. Isaiah needed to have his lips purified because his were unclean, but it doesn't say he stopped using them.

I don't think we'll be just spirits, as Job said he would see his creator in the flesh (Job 19:26).

Jesus said there's no marrying or giving in marriage in the resurrection, that we will be like the angels in heaven. But we don't know that there are no female angels. What the purpose would be of having a male/female distinction with no marriage (and no sex as a possible extrapolation, I suppose?) intrigues me, but it goes beyond what we've been told in the Bible.

If we extrapolate from the Word, our extrapolations need to be checked against the Word, and I don't think there's good evidence for those things you said.

Blessings.


Dear Derf,

I'm being careful about what I say. God talks to Jesus using telepathy and vice versa. Same thing with the angels. Satan also speaks telepathically, which he did with the serpent. When you die, you are a soul and a spirit. You don't have mouths to talk with. You are like a ball of energy, which is what is inside of you -- the Spirit of God. You will be given a star to live on. This is why it says in Daniel 11:36KJV, "And those who turn many to righteousness shall BE as the stars forever and ever." {See Daniel 12:3KJV} Jesus also said that those who go to heaven will be equal to the angels. It is written that the stars are warehouses of angels. That means many angels on one star that makes them shine so brightly. Inside you, the Spirit of God causes your soul to stay alive, the energy/electricity that makes your heart beat, and your brain function and helps you walk with your legs, etc. It takes power/Spirit of God. Don't confuse that with receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Two different things, positively. I don't want to get heavy with you, so that will have to do for now.

I don't know if Job meant that he would see God in his flesh or in His flesh. I also hope that someone knows where it is written that there will be no male or female in Heaven. I think it is in one of the Four Gospels, maybe where it says, 'there shall be no marriage {or sex} in Heaven.' In Rev., it says those who go to the New Jerusalem shall SEE God. I don't know all of the answers and don't promise to, so just think what you want. I don't want to give you more than you can bear. See what happens with finding that no male/female scripture. Otherwise, I do not want to say what is not true. See what happens. If it's anywhere, it's in one of the Four Gospels. But my concordance couldn't pick a verse for it because I can't remember a catch-word to find it. {See Matt. 22:30KJV, Mark 12:25KJV, Luke 20:34,35KJV.} If I am wrong, I apologize and admit I am wrong about that. I do hope they can find the scripture somehow. I don't want to have to add words to the book of the Bible. It is a grievous price for that.

OK, I hope this does it for you. Will chat with you later, Derf!!

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael

:guitar: :singer: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:


Start typing reply here, if you wish.
 

MichaelCadry

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Gaines Johnson is presenting a very simple and long-understood explanation for how most geysers work. But for most geysers, the chambers in which the water is replenished are relatively shallow – perhaps a few hundred feet in depth (Probes lowered into Old Faithful reached down less than 100 feet.)

But let me turn to another Christian I already mentioned who looked at the physics relating to the Biblical “fountains of the deep” – Walt Brown. He says:
At a pressure of one atmosphere—about 1.01 bar or 14.7 psi (pounds per square inch)—water boils at a temperature slightly above 212°F (100°C). As pressure increases, the boiling point rises. At a pressure of 3,200 psi (220.6 bars) the boiling temperature is 705°F (374°C). Above this pressure-temperature combination, called the critical point, water is supercritical and cannot boil.​
Drawing on what he then says, if a crack somehow made it down to some huge body of free-standing water at a depth of 300 miles, there would not be a geyser of water, there would be a jet of superheated gasses so hot and violent that it would be a mixture of molecules and single atoms. The escape velocity would be enormous, and the walls of the crack would be stripped away and carried up like ice cream behind the exhaust of a 747 jumbo jet engine at full power. (In fact Walt offers this as an explanation for why the near side of the moon has a higher crater density than the far side. The ejecta is thrown clear out of the earth's atmosphere.) Does that sound like Old Faithful to you?

You just can’t exhibit the Christian decency to avoid using the term “evolutionist” as a derogatory descriptor to be applied to anyone in science you want to disparage. Since your mind is incapable of looking at science objectively, let me inform you that old estimates about the volume of groundwater, inaccurate as they might be, came primarily from geologists and geophysicists - and those scientists did what you resolutely refuse to do, evaluate the available evidence on its own merits.

As I alluded to in a recent post, directly investigating what is in the interior of the earth is almost impossible due to the pressure and temperatures encountered only a few miles down. An enormous amount of study, including the article that you indirectly linked to, has led to substantial revisions in previous ideas. That’s called – science. It means being open to having to revise your ideas as new data becomes available. I know that is almost anathema for those who can’t tolerate any degree of ambiguity in what they personally believe the Bible to say. If you are unwilling to admit that ideas you once held might be in error, then forever sealing yourself deep in a well-equipped underground bunker might insulate you from actually learning and advancing.

It probably is. I too would be really excited if I were a Christian seeing the last vestiges of a scientifically bankrupt creation story being stripped away.

In light of how silly your Bible Genesis story has been seen to be so far, I am not much concerned with what the Bible tells us. I am far more interested in what the evidence shows. And if the deep subterranean water is now vastly less than it was pre-flood (and presuming the water from the “fountains of the deep” stayed on the earth), then were the pre-flood oceans nearly empty? Any scientific evidence to back that whopper of a story up?

And, the article you linked to says:
At the end of the flood, the Bible again accounts for the fountains of the deep being ‘stopped’ and the water returning back into the ground​
You really ought to keep your story straight with what your article says.


Dear DavisBJ,

You forget too easily. God can cause things to be exactly as He wishes. You don't know how He did it and neither do I. But it does say that the fountains of the deep were opened {during the Flood}. I've got to get going. I answered the two last posts on this thread because I was on that page. I will try to catch up with these posts. I've made it to page 952. I can't stay up any longer. Will chat with you later, buddy!!

Warmest Regards,

Michael
 

Crucible

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Question for anyone - Wouldn't the big bang theory necessitate the biggest, most massive black hole in creation ? Supernova explosions and the like are the only time new elements are created, and they all leave neutron star and black hole corpses. The big bang should be the same on an extremely massive scale.

The 'singularity', as it is described, was in many ways like a black hole, but it's yet be confirmed if it is relevant or otherwise the same as one. Stephen Hawking likes to treat it something of the sort, being the authority on black holes.

But
Scientists really just don't know what it is. It's all speculative.
 

Jonahdog

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Question for anyone - Wouldn't the big bang theory necessitate the biggest, most massive black hole in creation ? Supernova explosions and the like are the only time new elements are created, and they all leave neutron star and black hole corpses. The big bang should be the same on an extremely massive scale.

1. Find local university.
2. Find physics department.
3. Find a professor.
4. Ask the professor.

That way you might get an answer.
 

gcthomas

New member
Question for anyone - Wouldn't the big bang theory necessitate the biggest, most massive black hole in creation ? Supernova explosions and the like are the only time new elements are created, and they all leave neutron star and black hole corpses. The big bang should be the same on an extremely massive scale.

The early big bang universe did not collapse into a black hole simply because it was expanding too fast while decelerating. And there was no matter in the earliest moments, so it was not too similar the situation in static, massive old stars.
 

TheDuke

New member
Eye witness testimony is considered as part of the evidence.
sure, the moment you can prove it's not the word of men.

Haha... well you can call it whatever you like
I call it science! And with a pinch of sarcasm, I pray that one day you'll see it too.

try find just one mountain range in the world that does not have marine fossils.
sorry, I'm not the outdoors kinda guy.
But I'm fairly sure that some places might disappoint you: maybe Australia or Africa.

The much more interesting question however is, why are these fossils very old and of extinct species? Why does their age match the geological event of the formation of the mountain?
Why are they at all there, if the mountains were raised instantaneously?

So, go ahead, find me a nice juicy tuna fossil in the alps!

STRAWMAN because nobody has argued that the earth was flat 4000 years ago. What I did say is that there is enough water to cover a flat earth to a depth of 3 kilometres.
So what's the point of your argument then, if the earth wasn't flat before the flood?

Volcanic islands around the world such as Tahiti and Hawaii are covered in a wide array of lush vegetation and tropical trees. Some seeds such as coconut can survive long periods at sea. Some seed is likely dispersed in bird droppings but perhaps many arrive on floating mats of debris.
I accept evolution... sure if you mean the items I mentioned which are part of observable science and consistent with God's Word.

But if you mean evolution as in the unobservable and somewhat psuedoscientific *belief system of 'goo to you'... no.
You creationists are such a curious lot, sometimes you exhibit rational behaviour and reasoning, and even scientific curiosity.
So you, for example, have shown an understanding for naturalistic causes being the reason for natural phenomena. Why do you stop when it contradicts you bible?

E.g yes, evolution is exactly what you described, I've been trying desperately to make you aware that "goo to humans" is a misrepresentation, but you just won't listen.

Example:
Many evolutionists argued our eyes had a sloppy backwards inefficient design.
Opthamogists and researchers are beginning to realize that our eyes have an "optimal design".
I'm sure you meant: "ophthalmologist"
So where is the optimality in our eyes if we can't see very well compared to other animals, though we rely primarily on our sight?

Is it easy to beat up on all your strawmen? The Bible says nothing about geocentrism.
Au contraire, mon ami confondu:


Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.


Isaiah 40:22
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in


Oops, looks more like a literal flat earth.


Revelation 6:13
and the stars of the sky fell to earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;


More oops, the sun is about to fall down on us anytime soon.

Anytime now.....

I mean, really, it's clear, anytime.....











Anytime.
 

DavisBJ

New member
Question for anyone - Wouldn't the big bang theory necessitate the biggest, most massive black hole in creation ? Supernova explosions and the like are the only time new elements are created, and they all leave neutron star and black hole corpses. The big bang should be the same on an extremely massive scale.
Great question, but unfortunately it involves a conjunction of both General Relativity (an ominous study by itself) and Quantum Mechanics (also not a novice subject). I am not aware of a popular exposition of the subject that adequately covers the crucial elements at a layman’s level. With that apology, how about:

 

gcthomas

New member
Great question, but unfortunately it involves a conjunction of both General Relativity (an ominous study by itself) and Quantum Mechanics (also not a novice subject). I am not aware of a popular exposition of the subject that adequately covers the crucial elements at a layman’s level. With that apology, how about:


Great link - that old Usenet Physics FAQ is a good stand by resource, written to stop people posting the same old settled questions again and again on the physics channel.
 

DavisBJ

New member
Dear DavisBJ,

You forget too easily. God can cause things to be exactly as He wishes. You don't know how He did it and neither do I. But it does say that the fountains of the deep were opened {during the Flood}. I've got to get going. I answered the two last posts on this thread because I was on that page. I will try to catch up with these posts. I've made it to page 952. I can't stay up any longer. Will chat with you later, buddy!!

Warmest Regards,

Michael
Dear Michael,

I don’t dispute that your God can do what you say. If He says that mosquitoes pick up elephants and carry them back to their nests for dinner, then it must be so. Any possible thing I say that you disagree with – then you can use God as a kind of super-bandaid to paste over top of it and make it better. Reality is just an inconvenience that you prefer to ignore.

I really wonder what your God looks like. Communicates by telepathy, so no need for vocal cords or ears. Doesn’t eat food, so not much need for teeth, tongue, or digestive system. No sex, so I guess just a blank in that area. Most of what is left is not much more than a stick figure. Does your God really look just like a child’s drawing?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Up to the 1st second after the Big Bang (BB) energy was converting into sub-atomic particles. There is no gravitational pull on energy that I know of without matter.

After this we have the Lepton epoch, from 1 sec to 3 min after the BB.
Here we have matter/antimatter annihilation releasing more energy with nothing to prevent the universe expanding at the speed of light.

Next we have Nucleosynthesis, from 3 min to 20 min after BB.
The universe is the size of half way from earth to the sun and contains almost all the matter it ever will contain, condensed into nuclei. This sure sounds like a super massive black hole to me. The gravity would be enormous. And it's not as if the nuclei have a general velocity outwards. My supposition is that the Electromagnetic/Electrostatic forces of repulsion between these very close positive nuclei would be far superior to gravity and would thrust the universe outwards.

Black holes deal with atoms which have large spaces between them. Nuclei have the Strong Force holding them together. The Electromagnetic/electrostatic force between the positive nuclei would drive the early universe apart.

Next comes the Photon Epoch (or Radiation Domination), from 3 minutes to 240,000 years. I suppose the nuclei have gained so much velocity flying outwards that there gravity cannot pull it back together. This is the plasma era when the universe glows like a neon/fluorescent tube. There are no stars.


Facts taken from source below...


"Lepton Epoch, from 1 second to 3 minutes:
After the majority (but not all) of hadrons and antihadrons annihilate each other at the end of the Hadron Epoch, leptons (such as electrons) and antileptons (such as positrons) dominate the mass of the universe. As electrons and positrons collide and annihilate each other, energy in the form of photons is freed up, and colliding photons in turn create more electron-positron pairs.

Nucleosynthesis, from 3 minutes to 20 minutes:
The temperature of the universe falls to the point (about a billion degrees) where atomic nuclei can begin to form as protons and neutrons combine through nuclear fusion to form the nuclei of the simple elements of hydrogen, helium and lithium. After about 20 minutes, the temperature and density of the universe has fallen to the point where nuclear fusion cannot continue.

Photon Epoch (or Radiation Domination), from 3 minutes to 240,000 years:
During this long period of gradual cooling, the universe is filled with plasma, a hot, opaque soup of atomic nuclei and electrons. After most of the leptons and antileptons had annihilated each other at the end of the Lepton Epoch, the energy of the universe is dominated by photons, which continue to interact frequently with the charged protons, electrons and nuclei.

Recombination/Decoupling, from 240,000 to 300,000 years:
As the temperature of the universe falls to around 3,000 degrees (about the same heat as the surface of the Sun) and its density also continues to fall, ionized hydrogen and helium atoms capture electrons (known as “recombination”), thus neutralizing their electric charge. With the electrons now bound to atoms, the universe finally becomes transparent to light, making this the earliest epoch observable today. It also releases the photons in the universe which have up till this time been interacting with electrons and protons in an opaque photon-baryon fluid (known as “decoupling”), and these photons (the same ones we see in today’s cosmic background radiation) can now travel freely. By the end of this period, the universe consists of a fog of about 75% hydrogen and 25% helium, with just traces of lithium.

Dark Age (or Dark Era), from 300,000 to 150 million years:
The period after the formation of ther first atoms and before the first stars is sometimes referred to as the Dark Age. Although photons exist, the universe at this time is literally dark, with no stars having formed to give off light. With only very diffuse matter remaining, activity in the universe has tailed off dramatically, with very low energy levels and very large time scales. Little of note happens during this period, and the universe is dominated by mysterious “dark matter”."

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_timeline.html
 

DavisBJ

New member
Up to the 1st second after the Big Bang (BB) energy was converting into sub-atomic particles. There is no gravitational pull on energy that I know of without matter.

After this we have the Lepton epoch, from 1 sec to 3 min after the BB.
...
Good info. However, i think energy by itself indeed exerts a gravitational pull (and we know energy responds to the pull of gravity). For example, if we have an electron and a positron, we know they each exert a small gravitational tug. But if they meet, they mutually annihilate, leaving in their place photons with the E = m * c^2 energy of the original particles. In that process, the gravitational pull of the original particles does not simply vanish.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Good info. However, i think energy by itself indeed exerts a gravitational pull (and we know energy responds to the pull of gravity). For example, if we have an electron and a positron, we know they each exert a small gravitational tug. But if they meet, they mutually annihilate, leaving in their place photons with the E = m * c^2 energy of the original particles. In that process, the gravitational pull of the original particles does not simply vanish.

Is that a fact?
 

patrick jane

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Dear Michael,

I don’t dispute that your God can do what you say. If He says that mosquitoes pick up elephants and carry them back to their nests for dinner, then it must be so. Any possible thing I say that you disagree with – then you can use God as a kind of super-bandaid to paste over top of it and make it better. Reality is just an inconvenience that you prefer to ignore.

I really wonder what your God looks like. Communicates by telepathy, so no need for vocal cords or ears. Doesn’t eat food, so not much need for teeth, tongue, or digestive system. No sex, so I guess just a blank in that area. Most of what is left is not much more than a stick figure. Does your God really look just like a child’s drawing?

Exodus 33:20 KJV - Revelation 22:4-5 KJV -
 
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Derf

Well-known member
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Up to the 1st second after the Big Bang (BB) energy was converting into sub-atomic particles. There is no gravitational pull on energy that I know of without matter.
and the earth was without form and void.


After this we have the Lepton epoch, from 1 sec to 3 min after the BB.
Here we have matter/antimatter annihilation releasing more energy with nothing to prevent the universe expanding at the speed of light.
and darkness was upon the face of the deep.


Next we have Nucleosynthesis, from 3 min to 20 min after BB.
The universe is the size of half way from earth to the sun and contains almost all the matter it ever will contain, condensed into nuclei. This sure sounds like a super massive black hole to me. The gravity would be enormous. And it's not as if the nuclei have a general velocity outwards. My supposition is that the Electromagnetic/Electrostatic forces of repulsion between these very close positive nuclei would be far superior to gravity and would thrust the universe outwards.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Black holes deal with atoms which have large spaces between them. Nuclei have the Strong Force holding them together. The Electromagnetic/electrostatic force between the positive nuclei would drive the early universe apart.

Next comes the Photon Epoch (or Radiation Domination), from 3 minutes to 240,000 years. I suppose the nuclei have gained so much velocity flying outwards that there gravity cannot pull it back together. This is the plasma era when the universe glows like a neon/fluorescent tube. There are no stars.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (Stars aren't there yet in our account either, but the timing is eerily similar.)
 

MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
6days, perhaps you think essentially repeating a post that you offered several days ago as a defense of the validity of the Bible will carry the day. If this is the best shot you’ve got, then fine, I will not contest the content of the Bible on archaeological grounds. Since all the posts you have offered have utterly failed as defenses of a literal Genesis and the hocus-pocus it contains, then I think we are well justified in dispensing with Genesis as being scientifically reliable. I rather expect you will continue to declare that “science confirms God’s Word”, just as a petulant child walks away sobbing and saying “Well, my dad can beat your dad.” Sorry 6days, but ... Checkmate.


Dear Davis,

I think 6days has found some excellent accolades about the Bible and history and archaeology. I think Davis, that your curt response to 6days means you have nothing else to say because you have to call him names, which is the sign of a loser. He's not acting like a petulant child, sobbing, etc. You just can't answer him correctly. I think, to be honest, that 6days can say, Checkmate, instead.

Shame On You!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
sure, the moment you can prove it's not the word of men.


I call it science! And with a pinch of sarcasm, I pray that one day you'll see it too.


sorry, I'm not the outdoors kinda guy.
But I'm fairly sure that some places might disappoint you: maybe Australia or Africa.

The much more interesting question however is, why are these fossils very old and of extinct species? Why does their age match the geological event of the formation of the mountain?
Why are they at all there, if the mountains were raised instantaneously?

So, go ahead, find me a nice juicy tuna fossil in the alps!


So what's the point of your argument then, if the earth wasn't flat before the flood?


You creationists are such a curious lot, sometimes you exhibit rational behaviour and reasoning, and even scientific curiosity.
So you, for example, have shown an understanding for naturalistic causes being the reason for natural phenomena. Why do you stop when it contradicts you bible?

E.g yes, evolution is exactly what you described, I've been trying desperately to make you aware that "goo to humans" is a misrepresentation, but you just won't listen.


I'm sure you meant: "ophthalmologist"
So where is the optimality in our eyes if we can't see very well compared to other animals, though we rely primarily on our sight?


Au contraire, mon ami confondu:


Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.


Isaiah 40:22
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in


Oops, looks more like a literal flat earth.


Revelation 6:13
and the stars of the sky fell to earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;


More oops, the sun is about to fall down on us anytime soon.

Anytime now.....

I mean, really, it's clear, anytime.....

Anytime.



Dear TheDuke,

If the Lord God stretches the Heaven like a tent, then that is not flat at all. Have you expected a flat tent? 6days has done a wonderful job keeping up with you all and I'm proud of him!! You all expect too much from him. And when you are confronted with truth, you start acting ridiculous with your writing. Yes, the stars with fall from heaven, probably getting an icy coating. It says that hail shall be so bad, like nothing ever before on Earth.

Michael


Start typing reply here, if you wish.
 
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