Creation vs. Evolution

[MichaelCadry]

It was not me who posted that. Though I do not dispute that some of the ancient species of reptiles we know as dinosaurs had feathers. If you are truly curious about the evidence then you can surely investigate it yourself. That is if you really want to know.

Dear noguru,

Oh, okay. I am sorry. No, I do not want to go back through tons of posts to find out where it is. It's been a week or two. It's not warranted enough. Otherwise I might consider it. Thanks!

 

[Stuu]

Not really..... We were talking about one specific example. Michael had asked for a picture of a feathered reptile. Then Stu posted the picture with the dishonest caption.

Hang on. I've missed something here. What dishonest caption?

Stuart

 

[noguru]

Dear noguru,

Oh, okay. I am sorry. No, I do not want to go back through tons of posts to find out where it is. It's been a week or two. It's not warranted enough. Otherwise I might consider it. Thanks!

No, you misunderstood. I was not talking about looking through my posts. I was referring to the fact you can research the subject on your own were it that important to you. It seems that although you consistently make claims regarding evidence, you do not actually have the where with all to research the evidence on your own. I think you should consider how your laziness or cowardice here is a factor in your credibility. That is if that is at all important to you.

 

[6days]

But in this case however you still won’t get to show that no dinosaurs ever had feathers (or earlier versions of feathers) by doing so.

The point is you lectured Michael about "real evidence and scientific rigorous endeavor" and followed it up with an article about dinosaur feathers that was less than completely honest and based on beliefs. It seems you were willing to ignore real evidence and scientific endeavor if it fits your beliefs. Why are you so willing to accept artist depictions and hokey journalism?


I have no problem accepting feathered dinosaurs... but only if you have evidence for it. As Michael said, if feathered dinosaurs existed, then God created them. Can you show real evidence of feathered dinosaurs?


The fossil record (and in amber) provides many examples of beautiful feathers. There are wonderful fossils of feathers almost identical to modern feathers on birds such as archaeopteryx. The fossil record has perfectly preserved a myriad of things such as dinosaur skin, small insects, plants and leaves and even soft bodied animals such as the octopus. But.... where are the feathered dinosaurs?

The opinion of most natural scientists in the field imo is clearly that dinosaurs became birds

I suppose that is why some evolutionists see feathers where none exist.

In the example Stuu provided, there was a dinosaur fossil but with imaginary feathers.

In the example you provided, there was possible feathers, but only imaginary dinosaurs.

 

[alwight]

The point is you lectured Michael about "real evidence and scientific rigorous endeavor" and followed it up with an article about dinosaur feathers that was less than completely honest and based on beliefs. It seems you were willing to ignore real evidence and scientific endeavor if it fits your beliefs. Why are you so willing to accept artist depictions and hokey journalism?


I have no problem accepting feathered dinosaurs... but only if you have evidence for it. As Michael said, if feathered dinosaurs existed, then God created them. Can you show real evidence of feathered dinosaurs?


The fossil record (and in amber) provides many examples of beautiful feathers. There are wonderful fossils of feathers almost identical to modern feathers on birds such as archaeopteryx. The fossil record has perfectly preserved a myriad of things such as dinosaur skin, small insects, plants and leaves and even soft bodied animals such as the octopus. But.... where are the feathered dinosaurs?




I suppose that is why some evolutionists see feathers where none exist.

In the example Stuu provided, there was a dinosaur fossil but with imaginary feathers.

In the example you provided, there was possible feathers, but only imaginary dinosaurs.

I realise that you probably want a role for your God to play 6days, but you should also realise that I at least don't and am simply someone who wonders if reasonable, falsifiable and natural answers exist to explain the evidence and how life came to be as it is, regardless of any supernatural entities existing or not. My conclusion, as you might have already guessed, is that indeed such answers do exist, in all cases, that do explain all the evidence and don't require any assumptions of a specific supernatural involvement.

If your God did simply magic things into existence, with only the appearance of great age, then I have no way to refute that, since such a belief derived from ancient scripture is totally un-evidenced, un-falsifiable and thus quite reject-able imo. Afaic natural explanations do exist which are well evidenced, do not require magic and therefore seem rather more feasible to me.

Your only rational course of action, assuming you want to do more than simply assert your beliefs, imo is to find something that is "irreducibly complex" that simply couldn't have evolved naturally, which stumps the "evolutionists", if you can, which has been tried before and btw failed miserably. lain:

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx

 

[freelight]

Scales or feathers...Life evolves them all.....

Scales or feathers...Life evolves them all.....

One of you, I believe it was noguru, told me some reptiles had feathers. And I asked him to send me pics of them. Just go back a few pages and posts.to find out or ask noguru. And I am far from being a YEC. And whether they had feathers or not doesn't matter. God still created them.

Michael

The relationship between dinosaurs (or reptiles) and birds is interesting. Remember, life itself is evolutionary in nature, thanks to its own innate potential. Life-forms are intelligently adapting themselves within their own environments, co-dynamically with all other life-forms.

That 'God' created all things is a 'belief', while the reality of Life itself being what it is, and acting by its own intelligent laws...is the factual reality...since these unfold by natural law.

Taking this a step further, it would seem that some religionists refer to 'God' as a 'person',...but there is support that 'God' could be a 'personification' created by ourselves in order to relate to some supernatural being, which is really in fact, Nature itself - Again, we can refer to 'Nature', 'Intelligence', 'Spirit (life-energy-dynamic)', or 'Reality' itself as 'God',...but our 'conception' of 'God' may be subject to our 'projection' or 'personification' of such, relative to what religious tradition, mythology or belief-system we 'relate' things thru. Back to 'words'.

For a thought-stimulating 'commentary' on this see Rev. Michael Dowd's article "God: Person or Personification?"


In-joy!



paulie

 

[Stuu]

In the example Stuu provided, there was a dinosaur fossil but with imaginary feathers.

They were put there by your Imaginary Friend.

Stuart

 

[6days]

I realise that you probably want a role for your God to play 6days, but you should also realise that I at least don't and am simply someone who wonders if reasonable, falsifiable and natural answers exist to explain the evidence and how life came to be as it is, regardless of any supernatural entities existing or not. My conclusion, as you might have already guessed, is that indeed such answers do exist, in all cases, that do explain all the evidence and don't require any assumptions of a specific supernatural involvement.

If your God did simply magic things into existence, with only the appearance of great age, then I have no way to refute that, since such a belief derived from ancient scripture is totally un-evidenced, un-falsifiable and thus quite reject-able imo. Afaic natural explanations do exist which are well evidenced, do not require magic and therefore seem rather more feasible to me.

Your only rational course of action, assuming you want to do more than simply assert your beliefs, imo is to find something that is "irreducibly complex" that simply couldn't have evolved naturally, which stumps the "evolutionists", if you can, which has been tried before and btw failed miserably. lain:

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx

That is great that you explained your world view for interpreting evidence. My world view is that God created, and the scientific evidence supports that view.

Now... Whats this you want to say about archaeopteryx? That it had feathers? It certainly did!! Or was there a different point?

 

[6days]

That 'God' created all things is a 'belief', while the reality of Life itself being what it is, and acting by its own intelligent laws...is the factual reality...since these unfold by natural law.

Life acts by its own intelligent laws?? And these unfold by natural law??

Sure- just like traffic laws unfolds by natural law.
Laws require a law maker.

 

[freelight]

Creator and Creation are One......

Creator and Creation are One......

Life acts by its own intelligent laws?? And these unfold by natural law??

Sure- just like traffic laws unfolds by natural law.
Laws require a law maker.

Infinite Intelligence is the source of its own laws & principles, call it 'God', 'Nature', 'Spirit', 'Brahman', 'Allah', 'YHWH', 'Tao', etc.

Traffic laws were set in place by men, by intelligent design.

As far as my views on 'creation/evolution',..these have been amply summarized in its various facets here (see all links).

Life has within it its own intelligence, its own innate orientation and potentials. This 'reality' is self-evident to all conscious beings. This reality is inherent in the 'nature' of what is, right here, right now. This is factual reality. - what arises as adaptations of various life-forms and the many aspects of phenomenal existence, are the natural evolutional outgrowths and movements that life is adventuring for itself, for its own sake.

One can personify this life-principle or guiding intelligence, or not, but this same life-principle or intelligence appears consonant with creation. Life is creation unfolding itself, via 'evolution'.....naturally.


pj

 

[MichaelCadry]

No, you misunderstood. I was not talking about looking through my posts. I was referring to the fact you can research the subject on your own were it that important to you. It seems that although you consistently make claims regarding evidence, you do not actually have the where with all to research the evidence on your own. I think you should consider how your laziness or cowardice here is a factor in your credibility. That is if that is at all important to you.

Dear noguru,

It would be easier! to go through the past posts (not necessarily yours) than it would be to research it myself. And I've only a few times not provided my own scriptures of what I've said. I'm pretty up front with everything.

Thanks, Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

The relationship between dinosaurs (or reptiles) and birds is interesting. Remember, life itself is evolutionary in nature, thanks to its own innate potential. Life-forms are intelligently adapting themselves within their own environments, co-dynamically with all other life-forms.

That 'God' created all things is a 'belief', while the reality of Life itself being what it is, and acting by its own intelligent laws...is the factual reality...since these unfold by natural law.

Taking this a step further, it would seem that some religionists refer to 'God' as a 'person',...but there is support that 'God' could be a 'personification' created by ourselves in order to relate to some supernatural being, which is really in fact, Nature itself - Again, we can refer to 'Nature', 'Intelligence', 'Spirit (life-energy-dynamic)', or 'Reality' itself as 'God',...but our 'conception' of 'God' may be subject to our 'projection' or 'personification' of such, relative to what religious tradition, mythology or belief-system we 'relate' things thru. Back to 'words'.

For a thought-stimulating 'commentary' on this see Rev. Michael Dowd's article "God: Person or Personification?"


In-joy!



paulie

Dear freelight,

I'm sorry I have to disagree with you, but life is not evolutionary in nature thanks to it's own potential. That is something you believe. I don't regard God as a person and the Bible isn't a lie. It's been around too long and is very popular for it's own reasons. I can show you many times in the Scripture that God says He created things and they did not make themselves. God forms every change made and He created the dinosaurs, as well as the animals we now have on earth. This earth is not 6,000 to 10,000 years old. It has been around for billions of years. Succession in life had to go for a long time til we came to this place. God's in charge of that succession. It is not something it does by itself. I am also not a Young Earth Creationist.

Love You Much In Christ,

Michael

:rotfl:

:salute:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear 6days,

You're doing a SPLENDID, GREAT job. I can't THANK YOU enough!! You know a lot. What happened to all the computers and 100 trillion genomes or whatever. Seems like no one took that to heart?? Thus is evolutionists. They ignore you when you prove them wrong and won't answer back. Then there is me, who is willing to be a man and apologize if I am wrong.

God Made Us Different On Purpose,

Michael

 

[Stuu]

Dear 6days,

You're doing a SPLENDID, GREAT job. I can't THANK YOU enough!! You know a lot. What happened to all the computers and 100 trillion genomes or whatever. Seems like no one took that to heart?? Thus is evolutionists. They ignore you when you prove them wrong and won't answer back.

Please ask anything that you feel you have not been given a full and frank answer to.

Stuart

 

[noguru]

Dear noguru,

It would be easier! to go through the past posts (not necessarily yours) than it would be to research it myself. And I've only a few times not provided my own scriptures of what I've said. I'm pretty up front with everything.

Thanks, Michael

Yes, you are quite up front. That is exactly why we can see the deceit through your transparent veneer.

 

[alwight]

That is great that you explained your world view for interpreting evidence. My world view is that God created, and the scientific evidence supports that view.

Believe away then but I at least try to follow where evidence seems to lead while imo you otoh presuppose first and then start looking for supporting evidence, without too much success apparently.

Now... Whats this you want to say about archaeopteryx? That it had feathers? It certainly did!! Or was there a different point?

Yes feathers. In China they have found many more examples it seems.
If we can both accept that there is evidence for feathers then maybe we can decide whether such creatures are possibly a link between dinosaurs and birds? Based simply on the evidence of course not anyone's religious beliefs or presuppositions.

 

[gcthomas]

Dear 6days,
You're doing a SPLENDID, GREAT job. I can't THANK YOU enough!! You know a lot.

Haven't you noticed that much of what he posts has been copied word for word (including edits and typos) from other websites without so much as as an attribution?

In doing so he is being dishonest and is also breaking ToL rules on integrity to do so. He is a fraud, pretending to know what he is posting, skipping from one stolen argument to another with little idea what he is doing.

 

[noguru]

Haven't you noticed that much of what he posts has been copied word for word (including edits and typos) from other websites without so much as as an attribution?

In doing so he is being dishonest and is also breaking ToL rules on integrity to do so. He is a fraud, pretending to know what he is posting, skipping from one stolen argument to another with little idea what he is doing.

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear noguru,

You have your pans in the fire too. You are a Christian who doesn't believe in the story of Creation, but instead evolution and science. I think that is worse. I can imagine what God thinks of that.

Michael

 

[noguru]

Dear noguru,

You have your pans in the fire too. You are a Christian who doesn't believe in the story of Creation, but instead evolution and science. I think that is worse. I can imagine what God thinks of that.

Michael

I am not afraid of evidence. I am honest about the evidence. I do not know what else God would expect. Do you think He wants me to lie for Him, and make up divine visions to try and convince other people?