Creation vs. Evolution

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Moving the goalposts..... Mutations may not cause YOU or ME problems, but the point was that mutations destroy.

Seems unlikely. All of us have (apparently now found to be about 60) them. And yet it's quite unusual that any destroy any of us.

The mutations that don't cause YOU or ME problems, has still corrupted a small part of genome. That corruption is passed on to future generations.

As you learned, the person who developed that theory, Motoo Kimura, pointed out that it's not a problem over time, because natural selection removes any that become dangerous. It is, however true that all of us carry a large load of harmful recessives, that will be a problem if we mate with someone carrying any of those recessives. Hence, the incest prohibition.

Notice that Kimura also pointed out that this affects molecular evolution, but phentotypic changes would still be under Darwinian processes. The guys who fed you this story, edited it to remove that information.

Barbarian notes the increase in useful information of the Milano mutation.

The Milano mutation is a great example of a mutation with a beneficial outcome... but resulting from pre-existing info that was destroyed. A protein had a loss of specificity for manufacturing lipoproteins, allowing it to function with less specificity as an antioxidant.

They misled you about that, too. The old lipoprotein still exists in these people. The new one, of course, performs a new function. Instead of one substance, there is now information for two, both of them useful. Do you see how they led you to a foolish conclusion?

If you wish, I can refer you to articles from evolutionary geneticists discussing our "high mutational burden".

Barbarian chuckles:
I don't think you really want to go there.

I don't think you want to go there.....

See above. They misled you about neutralist theory.

OK...lets go with 60 additional mutations added to our genome each generation...Geneticists are still concerned because mutations destroy.

As you learned, most of them don't do much of anything. If any of them do eventually become significantly harmful, natural selection then acts on the phenotype, and they are gone, as Kimura said. That's the part your people withheld from you.

Barbarian observes:
If even a tenth of those sixty mutations were deadly, most of us would be dead. Maybe it's time to go back and learn about the way it actually works?

Strawman fallacy...you are fabricating a argument I didn't make.

You claimed mutations destroy. That was your word. And yet, you have about 60. If even a small percent of them actually destroyed, most of us would be dead. You can't have it both ways.

Morgan's early work on mutations could only see those that caused major changes, and of course those were mostly harmful. So scientists earlier thought mutations were more harmful than most of them actually are, and science has shown that (as I told you earlier) most of them don't do much of anything.

If a mutation is severe...Natural selection looks after it. But most mutations are mildly deleterious.

As Kimura points out, if these amount to significantly harmful phenotypic change, Darwinian processes remove them. Or they are recessive, and don't do much unless you marry a close relative.

Mutations destroy.... Once in awhile....very rarely there is a "useful" mutation, but it almost always is a result of information being destroyed.

Barbarian suggests:
Show me your numbers. Anytime there's a new allele in a population, the information rises. Assume whatever frequencies you like, and show us the math.

Shannon information doesn't apply to biological info.

ABSTRACT This paper discusses how Claude Shannon, the founder of information theory, came to be regarded a biologist. It was discovered that Shannon's channel capacity theorem only applied to living organisms and their products, such as communication channels and molecular machines that make choices from several possibilities.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...iologist_(information_theory_used_in_biology)

Barbarian observes:
For example, Barry Hall demonstrated the evolution of a new, irreducibly complex enzyme system in bacteria, via a series of useful mutations. Would you like to see how that happened?

Moving the goalpost fallacy again... That has nothing to do with your claim that 'Natural selection sorts it out'.

That was directly observed. Hall merely placed bacteria in an environment where they would thrive only if they had a way to utilize a particular molecule. Eventually, over a series of mutations, natural selection winnowed out those that made it increasingly efficient. What Hall did not expect was that natural selection also produced a regulator, which kept the enzyme from being produced until the molecule was actually there. Now, all three elements of the system had to be in place for it to work, making it irreducibly complex.

What Halls work did is show that mutations and natural selection can help bacteria adapt to an envioronment.

Darwin's theory. Congratulations. You are now an evolutionist.

Adaptaive mutations may simply be a design feature.

If you imagine God is just a "space alien", as some IDers claim. But if you think He's the Creator, then no design required.


The Milano mutation .....
So from the hundreds of thousands of mutations that have been studied you can't find even one single unambiguous example of a gain of specified complexity?

"Specified Complexity" is a religious doctrine, the meaning of which seems to change a lot. I'm just pointing out that many mutations, as you just learned, are useful. Of course, the old lipoprotein still exists, where there was information for one, there's now information for two.

The nylon bug mutation, via a frameshift in a plasmid, gave bacteria the ability to digest nylon oligomer.
Negoro, S., Biodegradation of nylon oligomers (2000), Appl. Microbiol. Biotechnol. 54, 461-466.

Ok... Going from memory on this one there was two mutations I think.

Not at first. But subsequent muations made it more efficient.

First there was a duplication error.

That's what a mutation is. I thought you knew.

The second mutation caused a loss of specificity to an enzyme.

Nope. It frameshifted an entire plasmid. So it didn't affect anything else on the actual bacterial genome.

I understand how important it is for you to deny these things. But at some point, you're going to have to reconcile your beliefs with reality.

No, that's wrong, too. You see, natural selection not only tends to remove the unfit, it also changes the available alleles in the next generation.

Natural selection removes the worst mutations, or we would be extinct. It can even change or shape gene frequencies in the next generation as you say. But natural selection can not even maintain our genome...

In fact, it continuously improves fitness, something even most creationists admit. They could hardly deny it, since it is directly observed.

and it certainly can't create.

See above. Produced a new irreducibly complex enzyme system. Pretty good work, um? God knew what He was doing, when he created the universe.

Even Carl Sagans ex wife who was an evolutionary biologist (Lynn Margulis) said 'Natural selection eliminates...maybe maintains, but it does not create'.

Margulis is an advocate of evolution by endosymbiosis. While I think she has some good ideas, her beliefs are generally not accepted for lack of evidence. I doubt if you have read any of her books; you probably would be surprised if you did.

Science and Gods Word tell us that everything reproduces after their own kind.

No. Genesis does not say that everything reproduces after their own kind. That is another addition that creationists insert into scripture.

This is what God's Word tells us....

Genesis1:11 "Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.

12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kindsand trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds

21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.

25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


Nothing about "reproducing according to kind." As you just learned, that was a modification of God's word by creationists, seeking to make scripture more compatible with their new beliefs. As you see, it doesn't give the details on how God used nature to make new species. It just says that He did.

And yes, that passage also denies the creationist doctrine of "life ex nihilo." He says He used existing creation to make living things.

Gods Word, and science tell us evolutionism is not possible.

I know you want to believe it. But the evidence does not support your belief.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Dear Untellectual,

I know you prob. won't believe this, but I had a vision about Mt. Helens when it erupted, the in the vision the angel said that it was to fulfill Rev. 9:1, 9:2)..."And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth; and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit (the center parts of the earth). And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

Now, I don't know if we have any other volcanoes on this continent of the U.S. (not counting Hawaii or Alaska), but this one was quite extraordinary when it did erupt. And the lava and magma were like a great furnace. You don't have to believe me, but I believe who I received the info from. This info is in my book, which I wrote quite a while ago.

In Christ's Love Also,

Michael

:eek:

:confused:

:think:
To be honest at first glance I don't see at all how this event would relate to these two verses in the book of Revelation.
 

DavisBJ

New member
… Even the Rocks will Scream Out. LOL!!!!
I flinch just a tad whenever I read The Bible account about that snake in the Garden of Eden that had vocal cords. But now you are telling me that rocks are going to start jabbering too? This Christian stuff just gets goofier and goofier.
 

noguru

Well-known member
The following link is just less than two years old, but I just saw it today.

LINK -> The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth

Are you serious? Do you think those have not been rebutted thoroughly already?

I tell you what. Since you seem so fond of peeling back only one layer of the onion, why don't you put a little more time/effort, peel back the other layers and find the rebuttals for those?

Will you feel embarrassed when someone else does post the rebuttals, all of which I have seen already?

Probably not. It is already obvious to me how much you prefer your confirmation bias over a clear view of reality.
 

DavisBJ

New member
The following link is just less than two years old, but I just saw it today.

LINK -> The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth
Would you like to look a bit more in detail at some of those and see just how credible they really are?

But if your answer is yes, I expect more honesty on your part as to accepting the implications of whichever way the evidence falls. As far as I can tell, you have not yet been willing to look at the evidence for whale evolution, opting instead for “it is false because I think that is what the Bible says.” If what you think the Bible says is an absolute yardstick you will not compromise on, then why even entertain the idea that secular evidence might be considered?
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
The following link is just less than two years old, but I just saw it today.

LINK -> The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth

More fruit loopery. Tell you what. Pick the one you think is most persuasive, and tell us why your guy thinks it's evidence against an old Earth. And then we'll talk. Then you can pick another one.

Trust me, you won't like the way it turns out. Your choice.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Would you like to look a bit more in detail at some of those and see just how credible they really are?

But if your answer is yes, I expect more honesty on your part as to accepting the implications of whichever way the evidence falls. As far as I can tell, you have not yet been willing to look at the evidence for whale evolution, opting instead for “it is false because I think that is what the Bible says.” If what you think the Bible says is an absolute yardstick you will not compromise on, then why even entertain the idea that secular evidence might be considered?

Because he is a fraud. His use of these claimed "10 best evidences" really says more about his character than anything else. I have been following this debate on the internet for 14 years now (more years before the internet also) and I have seen those "evidences" going back at least 10 years. I have also seen thorough rebuttals for each.
 

DavisBJ

New member
It would not surprise me if God made the cave crabs without eyes because they are cave crabs. Who is to say if they EVER had eyes??

Cheerio,

Michael
You have said your forte is not evolution (in spite of the title you gave this thread), but your suggestion that maybe God created cave crabs without eyes isn’t such a good suggestion. They have no eyes, but they still have some of the accessories that support eyes. Since those accessories are not needed, they are probably more of a detriment than a benefit to the crabs. You want to pin that kind of design on your God?

Corn flake,

Davis
 

Stuu

New member
The following link is just less than two years old, but I just saw it today.

LINK -> The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth
Hilarious. The whole premise of these being "evidences"* is ruined by the admission "The problem is, as we consider the topic of origins, all so-called “evidences” must be interpreted." So it's not evidence for a young earth, it is a special interpretation of evidence for a really old earth. Would you say Occam's Razor has been employed, or will the untestable assumptions build up, out of control, into a mountain of fantasy? I guess we will find out as you try to justify every point.

And what about the 'so-called' bit? Is this a body of evidence for a young earth, or is it "so-called" evidence that isn't really evidence, actually?

But maybe you could start by defending this claim, at the top of the page:

"That’s a fact, plainly revealed in God’s Word."

Where exactly is this fantasy of a few thousand years old earth revealed?

Stuart

*Evidences isn't a valid plural form of this noun. In this case the word is trying to refer to a body of facts, but the word for a body of facts is evidence.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Are you serious? Do you think those have not been rebutted thoroughly already?
This is not about me. This is about God and the pursuit of truth.
I tell you what. Since you seem so fond of peeling back only one layer of the onion, why don't you put a little more time/effort, peel back the other layers and find the rebuttals for those?
Can you propose something about evolution you believe? I have, but I haven't heard anything from you.
Will you feel embarrassed when someone else does post the rebuttals, all of which I have seen already?
Why would you ask someone if they will feel embarrassed? Spend your time doing contructive things for the God of the universe instead.
Probably not. It is already obvious to me how much you prefer your confirmation bias over a clear view of reality.
Again, I didn't write it. But it is on the web. I actually haven't even read any of it. But it may interest some of you.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Would you like to look a bit more in detail at some of those and see just how credible they really are?

But if your answer is yes, I expect more honesty on your part as to accepting the implications of whichever way the evidence falls. As far as I can tell, you have not yet been willing to look at the evidence for whale evolution, opting instead for “it is false because I think that is what the Bible says.” If what you think the Bible says is an absolute yardstick you will not compromise on, then why even entertain the idea that secular evidence might be considered?
Evidence doesn't fall.

I don't believe creatures went from land to ocean or from ocean to land. Does that clear it up?

Science is not secular evidence. There is philosophy behind science, but that philosophy is not secular. The scientific method doesn't care whether a person believes in God or not by itself. But it is a way to investigate God's creation, I have no doubt about that. Remember, experiments or no experiments... observation can be science either way.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Hilarious. The whole premise of these being "evidences"* is ruined by the admission "The problem is, as we consider the topic of origins, all so-called “evidences” must be interpreted." So it's not evidence for a young earth, it is a special interpretation of evidence for a really old earth. Would you say Occam's Razor has been employed, or will the untestable assumptions build up, out of control, into a mountain of fantasy? I guess we will find out as you try to justify every point.

And what about the 'so-called' bit? Is this a body of evidence for a young earth, or is it "so-called" evidence that isn't really evidence, actually?

But maybe you could start by defending this claim, at the top of the page:

"That’s a fact, plainly revealed in God’s Word."

Where exactly is this fantasy of a few thousand years old earth revealed?

Stuart

*Evidences isn't a valid plural form of this noun. In this case the word is trying to refer to a body of facts, but the word for a body of facts is evidence.
If someone says, this X is a day old... and another person says this X is actually four days old... which person would you believe? We could either say the evidences are different in that one person points with particular conviction at what he has observed to lead to that conclusion, or cites who told him such and such. We could also say that item X was dated in two different ways though item X remains how old it is either way. Then is item X the evidence or is the conclusion about how old item X is the evidence?
 

alwight

New member
Hi alwight.. after seeing your post i went to my library and found a sermon you might want to read.. it was your statement "I'm not aware of any threats from any real God out there" that prompted me..

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/je-sinners.htm

everready
Hi, but as I already explained I don't believe that your God exists. So sermons and pontifications that baldly presume that my belief is automatically wrong while theirs is undoubtable correct, without the aid of any specific testable confirming evidence at all, apparently just their mere assumptions and presuppositions, I shall, as baldly, dismiss as being rather worthless claptrap.
 

alwight

New member
Dear Alwight,

I know you've been through it before, but not all of this at once. And this severe. You will definitely find out, this time, there is a God!! One of my roommates is 65 and even he is surprised. Age doesn't matter. It depends where your beliefs lie.

Michael
My own beliefs are that humanity has always been in often severe dangers, either from natural causes or bloody conflict, while your beliefs seem to make you want look at such signs perhaps hopefully for your supposed coming events ? :think:

Dear Alwight,

It would not surprise me if God made the cave crabs without eyes because they are cave crabs. Who is to say if they EVER had eyes??

Cheerio,

Michael
Eyestalks on crabs without eyes would be a strange intended design indeed Michael.
 

noguru

Well-known member
This is not about me. This is about God and the pursuit of truth.

You posted the article in defense of a scientific claim. God did not do that.

Can you propose something about evolution you believe? I have, but I haven't heard anything from you.

What are you talking about? I believe the evidence all around me, and I do not hide from thorough research as you do.

Why would you ask someone if they will feel embarrassed? Spend your time doing contructive things for the God of the universe instead.

I feel that pointing out your (un)intentional deceptions is constructive, especially when you do that in the name of God.

Again, I didn't write it. But it is on the web. I actually haven't even read any of it. But it may interest some of you.

You posted the articles in defense of a scientific position you have chosen to take. You cannot hide from that reality either.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
You posted the article in defense of a scientific claim. God did not do that.

What are you talking about? I believe the evidence all around me, and I do not hide from thorough research as you do.

I feel that pointing out your (un)intentional deceptions is constructive, especially when you do that in the name of God.

You posted the articles in defense of a scientific position you have chosen to take. You cannot hide from that reality either.
I haven't chosen to take a position. I don't even know what the position is of the people in the links in that article. I only know that the link was communicated to me and I referred it on in this opportune time. But I know science is about more than evolution, and I believe these pursuits of others show that.

God indeed did create the universe. What scientific claim might you be referring to? I already know I am not God. What I do is not God Himself doing something, but I can do things that will lead others to the one true God, the God of creation, the creator of the heavens and the earth.

As for thorough research I don't know of what you speak.
 

6days

New member
You mean like “1) All hobbies, including the hobby of not collecting stamps are …”
You are a silly billy...people who dont collect stamps dont buy books and magazines about it. People who dont collect stamps dont have conferences and meetings about it. There are no, non stamp collectors who argue about the merits of not being a collector etc etc.
But there are atheists who buy books and magazines about their beliefs. There are atheists who attend and conferences and attend monthly meetings. There are atheists who debate the merits of their belief system...etc etc. Many atheists are religious.
 
Last edited:

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Evidence doesn't fall.

I don't believe creatures went from land to ocean or from ocean to land. Does that clear it up?

Science is not secular evidence.

Science is only about evidence. It works only by making inferences from the evidence. It's been that way for a very, very long time, beginning with some Greeks in Asia Minor, and becoming systemized and codified by Hellenistic scholars, Muslim scientists, and finally by Francis Bacon. We haven't improved on the method since then.

There is philosophy behind science, but that philosophy is not secular.

It is based on an assumption. Uniformitarianism. Not what you probably think it is. It is the assumption that the universe is regular and knowable, and that the same rules have been in place since the beginning. So far, always works.

This is why atheists, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. can all do science and come up with the same conclusions. I entirely understand how science can produce an epiphany for someone who believes and knows something of the world. It happens to me sometimes, and the experience is profound.

But usually that doesn't happen, and whether I am consciously thinking of His creation or not, I can still do science.

Still, I pity the people who don't get that epiphany. Most especially those who believe in Him but never see the depth of His creation.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top