Creation vs. Evolution

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MichaelCadry

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Dear Mark,

I am not being racist at all. Black or white, Ham's son (Canaan) shall serve his brethren Shem and Japheth. If it is not the descendants of Ham and Canaan, then I am okay with that.

I will conclude that Ham's child Canaan, and possibly the land of Canaan, will be servants, NOT SLAVES, to Shem and Japheth. We are all servants of God. That doesn't make us slaves of God. Come on!!

Much Love In Christ,

Michael
 

The Barbarian

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Barbie, Do you still believe that Wolves and Dogs are a Separate Species?

You don't have to scream. Just go back in the thread. You'll see I told you that they were subspecies. Wolves are classified as Canis lupis lupis. Here, you can learn about some others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

You see, as I told you, there is a lot more genetic variation in wolves than there is in humans. This is why your racial ideas about humans are so wrong. There are no genetic human races.
 

Mark SeaSigh

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You don't have to scream. Just go back in the thread. You'll see I told you that they were subspecies. Wolves are classified as Canis lupis lupis. Here, you can learn about some others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

You see, as I told you, there is a lot more genetic variation in wolves than there is in humans. This is why your racial ideas about humans are so wrong. There are no genetic human races.

Like I said Before, I believe that All of Man is A Single Species as the Bible also Implies this; It's you that Believes in these, "Subspecies".

Barbie;

So, you think that they are A Sub Species of Dog? or, that Dogs are a Sub Species of Wolf, You're so Confusing with your Catholic Antics.

Who Taught you how To Lie Like that, The Pope?

Can you give me your Personal Definition of the two words, Species, and Subspecies.

My personal Definition of Species is;

A group of Living Things, that can Interbreed.

I simplified it Further From My original Personal Definition; A Group of Animals, with Like Characteristics, which are Capable of Interbreeding.

=M=

How Odd, what this Says, Eh?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Are...ecies+as+Dogs?&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Now, you know you are Wrong, Right?

======================================

Music!!!!

Built To Spill - Reasons


My heart Danced; When I finally Met the Exact Opposite of My Belief System, by the Name of Barbie; The Catholic Evolutionist Atheist.

Rest In Pieces, Barbie. Your, "Science", is Outdated.
 
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The Barbarian

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So, you think that they are A Sub Species of Dog? or, that Dogs are a Sub Species of Wolf, You're so Confusing with your Catholic Antics.

Dogs are just one subspecies of wolf, as I told you earlier. English isn't your first language is it?

Who Taught you how To Lie Like that, The Pope?

(Seasigh gets sort of eye-scratchy and hair-pully when he's frustrated)

Can you give me your Personal Definition of the two words, Species, and Subspecies.

For sexually-reproducing organisms, the biological species concept is applicable, that is a species is a population of organisms that actually or potentially interbreed in nature.

Subspecies are organisms that potentially can interbreed in nature, but do not for some reason, such as isolation, different mating signals, and so on.

My personal Definition of Species is;

A group of Living Things, that can Interbreed.

So let's give that a test...

ensatina.gif


Here's a map of California, with the ranges of a number of different lizard populations on it. The lizards can (and sometimes do) interbreed with members of the adjoining populations.

Except at the end of the circle, where E. eschscholtzii and E. klauberi cannot interbreed. So how many species are there in this case? That's not a rhetorical question; I'd like you to tell me.

I simplified it Further From; A Group of Animals, with Like Characteristics, which are Capable of Interbreeding.

After I showed you that it was a mistake to limit it to animals. Which is an improvement. But now I'd like you to apply that to the case above. Tell us about it.

How Odd, what this Says, Eh?

I'm waiting for your answer, which might be even more so.

Are you beginning to get some idea why species are such a devastating problem for creationists?
 

Mark SeaSigh

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Dogs are just one subspecies of wolf, as I told you earlier. English isn't your first language is it?

(Seasigh gets sort of eye-scratchy and hair-pully when he's frustrated)

For sexually-reproducing organisms, the biological species concept is applicable, that is a species is a population of organisms that actually or potentially interbreed in nature.

Subspecies are organisms that potentially can interbreed in nature, but do not for some reason, such as isolation, different mating signals, and so on.

So let's give that a test...

ensatina.gif


Here's a map of California, with the ranges of a number of different lizard populations on it. The lizards can (and sometimes do) interbreed with members of the adjoining populations.

Except at the end of the circle, where E. eschscholtzii and E. klauberi cannot interbreed. So how many species are there in this case? That's not a rhetorical question; I'd like you to tell me.

After I showed you that it was a mistake to limit it to animals. Which is an improvement. But now I'd like you to apply that to the case above. Tell us about it.

I'm waiting for your answer, which might be even more so.

Are you beginning to get some idea why species are such a devastating problem for creationists?

No, Barbie, I believe that those are all the Same Species.

See Here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensatina#cite_note-6

The Ensatina salamander has been described as a ring species in the mountains surrounding the Californian Central Valley.[2] The complex forms a horseshoe shape around the mountains, and though interbreeding can happen between each of the 19 populations around the horseshoe, the Ensatina eschscholtzii subspecies on the western end of the horseshoe cannot interbreed with the Ensatina klauberi on the eastern end.[4] As such it is thought to be an example of Incipient Speciation, and provides an illustration of "nearly all stages in a speciation process" (Dobzhansky,1958).[2][5] Richard Highton argued Ensatina is a case of multiple species and not a continuum of one species (meaning, by traditional definitions it is not a ring species)[6]

They are All the Same Species. Given they can All interbreed.

Here, where I live, In Reality; We like to Call them all, "Salamanders". I know it's The Technical Name for them, but just try to Understand;

They are all Capable of Interbreeding, the only thing that keeps the ones you Mentioned from Interbreeding is that they are Kept apart, by their Environment.

So, According to my Definition of Species, and Science's; they are the Same Species, since they are Capable of Interbreeding, just Obstacles of Nature Keep them apart.

Is there an actual Example of Speciation, that you know of?

Cause, "Incipient speciation" just means;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incipient_speciation

Oh, The Beautiful Truth Shines though the Thick Smelling Popery, of Barbie, Once Again!!!!!

=M=

Again!!!! Twice in One Day, AGAIN, You're Wrong!!!! Where will it End, Barbie, Where?

Barbie said:
After I showed you that it was a mistake to limit it to animals. Which is an improvement. But now I'd like you to apply that to the case above. Tell us about it.

No, it is A mistake to try and Cram Every Micro Organism into the Same Classification Model, as Animals and Trees.

Micro Organisms don't Reproduce anything Like Animals Do.

Do you know the Different Ways Bacteria Reproduce? I mean you say your a Bacteriologist, but I don't think So, when I consider that you consider they should be classified in the same Way Animals and Trees Are.

It is A Huge Problem for Biology to Classify Micro Organisms in the Same Way;

That is what this Article on Wiki Says;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

It's in the First Paragraph of that Speciation article;

"Definitions are usually based on how individual organisms reproduce, but biological reality means that a definition that works well for some organisms (e.g., birds) will be useless for others (e.g., bacteria)."

What do you Make of that? Given your Belief System, Barbie?

Stop your Crying, you Big 'Ol Baby;

=====================================

Muisick!!!!!!

David Bowie, and Queen - Under Pressure?
 
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MichaelCadry

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You don't have to scream. Just go back in the thread. You'll see I told you that they were subspecies. Wolves are classified as Canis lupis lupis. Here, you can learn about some others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

You see, as I told you, there is a lot more genetic variation in wolves than there is in humans. This is why your racial ideas about humans are so wrong. There are no genetic human races.


Dear Barbarian,

I only said what is written in the Bible. I have no racial divisions in my soul. I love black, brown, yellow, red and white people tons. You surely do not know me well yet.

The Land of Canaan is now Israel (And Palestinians/Philistines). Check out your dictionary. Look up Palestinians.

The only Arabs I don't care for are those who are crazy-minded, going and blowing themselves up for 72 virgins!! You must know, I have some Lebanese in my blood also, so it's not like I'm being 'racial' or biased against Arab people.

God Be With You,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Oh, I See,

I guess that Makes Sense.

=M=

What was your Question Yesterday?

Or was it more of a Rhetorical Question?


Dear Mark,

The reason I posted what I did yesterday was for the benefit of everyone who got to read it. It is a series of posts for about a week long. I'll post one 2nite. You take care of yourself and enjoy your weekend.

God Bless You & Your Close Ones Abundantly,

Michael

:car:
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
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Dear All, Who Care:

If You Want To Know More About the Antichrist:

The little horn that comes up is the Antichrist, who comes up with a mouth speaking great things. (See Dan. 7:8, Dan. 8:9). And he deceives people with mental telepathy and negativity, and accusations (See Rev. 12:10). A very GREAT sin that is running rampant in the earth right now. The angels had a very hard time with it, so don't think it's a piece of cake. It will be very difficult for us on earth to do the same as the angels did, but you'll make it if you persist. And the Antichrist's name is Uri Geller, and he is an Israeli psychic who could do great wonders that others couldn't do normally, but only by sleight-of-hand. So when he came doing his silver spoon bending, the magicians did it too. Now Uri had asked his teacher if Jesus could do miracles like the ones he did. I don't know what the teacher said, but I know what the angel said to me and that's that he was the Antichrist. Now a while afterwards, since Uri's believability was damaged by the magicians (especially The Amazing Randi) and that was Uri's deadly wound, a French man (False Prophet) came being able to do the same things as Uri, and the scientists started to wonder about it all and did many tests. But Uri's fame waned, just like the 'little horn'. (See Dan. 7:8). But the French psychic caused Uri Geller's wound to heal. (See Rev. 13:12, 17:8) "...when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be faced with this dilemma. (See same verse).

I'm just being as honest as I can. I could make things up, but I'd get clobbered by God. And the horns and heads that you see on the beast and whore are 'kings' of the devil. And the woman which you saw is that great CITY, which reigns over the kings of the earth. (See Rev. 17:18). Word for word. The CITY is Hollywood. This is what was TOLD to me. Where the girls and guys too, line the streets trying to be prostitutes for money, just like in Babylon. The angel told me that Hollywood was spiritually like ancient Babylon. They've been caught up in a bad situation. They go there for fame or money, and find out they can't afford a place to even stay or even food to eat, and there are no jobs, so they sell themselves out of lack of choice. And it's Hollywood doing all of this, teaching all of the world through it's movies, games, magazines, books, TV shows, music, etc., all kind of evil ways and the earth thinks, because they see them on TV, they should be that way or imitate them. Only those who don't have a sane head on their shoulders. It's awful. And Hollywood is going to get clobbered with a huge earthquake. But there will be one bigger than that which will occur before the Hollywood earthquake, and it shall be such a great earthquake that has ever been since man has been on the earth. You shall hear of it, or be in it. I have a strong idea of where it will be, but I will keep it to myself because every little mistake I make, I've got to pay for. So I will speak only of those things which I know as fact from now on.

Oh, I could tell you SO many things, but I have to type forever. Sometimes, the things I tell you here are not even in my book, because it's easier over the days and days to explain myself. For myself, I know that 3 kings are fallen, namely, I quit being gay or thinking about sex. I abstain and I'm glad I do it. I do like women that way, but I cannot have sex with one. See Rev. 11:4. I must remain a virgin with WOMEN. It has not been easy and it's been a rough life with everyone wondering why I don't have a family and children, and a 2nd or 3rd wife. I'd have to be tied down by a wife and family. That's a sin right there that I don't have to worry about. Plus, I quit smoking cigs after 40 years! One of the hardest things I've done. It took a few efforts before I got it done for good. I've also quit drinking so much beer, and now I think it tastes terrible. I hardly ever drink now. Maybe a bottle of wine in a month. A a couple glasses on Passover. Yes, I make my own homemade Matzoh Bread.

No, I am a witness for God, bearing my testimony in front of the Judge, bearing what I have seen and heard from Him, the angels, the Holy Ghost, visions, and angels. I've been blessed so GREATLY for this happening, but it has not come with a HUGE PRICE. I have paid dearly mentally and spiritually for the information I have, and Satan trying his best to shut me up. And he tries EXTREMELY hard. He does not want me to tell all of my experiences to others, because they will be saved and they will become immune to him and his demons. There's a lot for him to lose if he doesn't come out a winner. He won't because God is more powerful than him and it is written that the Lord God plays with him as a little bird. So God IS in charge, nevertheless.
 
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The Barbarian

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I only said what is written in the Bible.

If you had stopped with what was written, it would have been better for you.

I have no racial divisions in my soul. I love black, brown, yellow, red and white people tons.

Some of your best friends are black, right?

You surely do not know me well yet.

What you write is a window into your mind. You might remember that.

The Land of Canaan is now Israel (And Palestinians/Philistines). Check out your dictionary. Look up Palestinians.

The Bible says nothing at all about the current mess, or the people living there.

The only Arabs I don't care for are those who are crazy-minded, going and blowing themselves up for 72 virgins!!

That would be pretty stupid if one accepted Islam. Martyrdom is praised, but suicide is condemned in the Qu'aran without any mentioned exception. It also absolutely condemns killing of the innocent. Hence the terrorist claim "no one is innocent" as a way of avoiding the issue.

You must know, I have some Lebanese in my blood also

And...

so it's not like I'm being 'racial' or biased against Arab people.

If so, you probably have a few statements to correct.
 

Mark SeaSigh

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Barbie!!! You Came Back!!!!

Oh!!! JOY!!!!

Did you come back to tell me that All those Salamanders are Capable of Interbreeding, and that you now think they are all the Same Species?

And you were WRONG, about them actually Speciating.

Or, Perhaps, Did you Return, to Admit that you now realize You were Mistaken in thinking Wolves and Dogs Are a different Species, Given all the Textbooks are Currently Being Changed, to allow Wolves and All Dogs to Appear to be the SAME EXACT SPECIES?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Are...ecies+as+Dogs?&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

=M=

Or, Perhaps, you have an Example of Speciation, actually occurring?

Say, when a Single Species of Animals Are Split, and Over Time they Actually Speciate, and become Unable to Interbreed.

Even the Tiger and Lion have been apart for, How Long?
They can Still interbreed!!!!! LOL!!!

How Long Does True Speciation take to Take Place?

How do all these Many Forms of Modern Living Things Exist?

I mean, if Species Don't Speciate, and there is No Evidence they have or that they ever Will; Why do you Believe in Speciation?
 
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The Barbarian

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Did you come back to tell me that All those Salamanders are Capable of Interbreeding, and that you know think they are all the Same Species?

As you learned, they aren't all capable of interbreeding. So, by your definition, they are not a single species. Try reading it again, carefully. So you're going to have to do some more work on your definition of "species."

Or, Perhaps, Did you Return, to Admit that you now realize You were Mistaken in thinking Wolves and Dogs Are a different Species,

Go back and look. I said they were subspecies. Did you forget, again? I even gave you a link to learn about it.

Given all the Textbooks are Currently Being Changed, to allow Wolves and All Dogs to Appear to be the SAME EXACT SPECIES?

You've been misled about that, too. They've been classified as subspecies for decades at least.

Or, Perhaps, you have an Example of Speciation, actually occurring?

The first one observed directly was in the early 1900s. O. gigas from O. lamarckania from a polyploidy event.

Soon after de Vries reported various mutants derived from O. lamarckiana, a number of investigators studied their chromosomal numbers and chromosomal segregation at meiosis (Cleland 1972). They found many aneuploids and trisomics, but there was one elementary species (O. gigas), which was bigger and more vigorous than O. lamarckiana. This was later shown to be a tetraploid (Lutz 1907; Gates 1908; Davis 1943). Furthermore, cytogenetic studies of flowering plants (angiosperms) in the mid 20th century showed that 20–40% of the species had experienced polyploidization in their origin (Stebbins 1950; Grant 1981). At this stage, it was clear that the chromosomal mutation called polyploidization is an important mechanism of creating new species in angiosperms.
Roles of Mutation and Selection in Speciation: From Hugo de Vries to the Modern Genomic Era
Masatoshi Nei and Masafumi Nozawa

Oxford Journals
Science & Mathematics
Genome Biology and Evolution
Volume 3
Pp. 812-829

Drosophila Miranda, a New Species
Th. Dobzhansky
Genetics. Jul 1935; 20(4): 377–391.

Say, when a Single Species of Animals Are Split, and Over Time they Actually Speciate, and become Unable to Interbreed.

Yep. That usually takes some time, as in the flies Dobzhansky observed to speciate, but O. gigas is completely unable to interbreed with O. lamarckania, from which they evolved. So, according to your definition, a speciation event. Maybe you need to work on that definition some more. Remember when I told you that defining "species" was a difficult problem for creationism? Perhaps you understand why now.

How Long Does True Speciation take to Take Place?

Depends. By your definition, it can be as quickly as one generation. Or it can be millions of years. You might want to read up about the pacing of evolution under different circumstances. Start with The Origin of Species; Darwin discussed it.

How do all these Many Forms of Modern Living Things Exist?

I mean, if Species Don't Speciate,

According to your definition, they do. See above.

Why do you Believe in Speciation?

It's directly observed. Your definition, for example, says it does.
 

Mark SeaSigh

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As you learned, they aren't all capable of interbreeding. So, by your definition, they are not a single species. Try reading it again, carefully. So you're going to have to do some more work on your definition of "species."

Go back and look. I said they were subspecies. Did you forget, again? I even gave you a link to learn about it.

You've been misled about that, too. They've been classified as subspecies for decades at least.

The first one observed directly was in the early 1900s. O. gigas from O. lamarckania from a polyploidy event.

[OLOR="DarkRed"]Soon after de Vries reported various mutants derived from O. lamarckiana, a number of investigators studied their chromosomal numbers and chromosomal segregation at meiosis (Cleland 1972). They found many aneuploids and trisomics, but there was one elementary species (O. gigas), which was bigger and more vigorous than O. lamarckiana. This was later shown to be a tetraploid (Lutz 1907; Gates 1908; Davis 1943). Furthermore, cytogenetic studies of flowering plants (angiosperms) in the mid 20th century showed that 20–40% of the species had experienced polyploidization in their origin (Stebbins 1950; Grant 1981). At this stage, it was clear that the chromosomal mutation called polyploidization is an important mechanism of creating new species in angiosperms. [/COLOR]
Roles of Mutation and Selection in Speciation: From Hugo de Vries to the Modern Genomic Era
Masatoshi Nei and Masafumi Nozawa

Yep. That usually takes some time, as in the flies Dobzhansky observed to speciate, but O. gigas is completely unable to interbreed with O. lamarckania, from which they evolved. So, according to your definition, a speciation event. Maybe you need to work on that definition some more. Remember when I told you that defining "species" was a difficult problem for creationism? Perhaps you understand why now.

Depends. By your definition, it can be as quickly as one generation. Or it can be millions of years. You might want to read up about the pacing of evolution under different circumstances. Start with The Origin of Species; Darwin discussed it.

How do all these Many Forms of Modern Living Things Exist?

According to your definition, they do. See above.

It's directly observed. Your definition, for example, says it does.

Oh, But they Are, They are capable of Interbreeding, Every one of those Salamanders, and so is A Lion and Tiger.

Thereby, according to My Definition of Species, No Actual Speciation has taken Place. In fact, it More Proves that Forms of Animals Don't Speciate. The fact that Two of the Same Species are apart, does not make them Different Species, that would be like you thinking Indians from India, are a Different Species, than Brazilians, because their Environment Keeps them Apart. That Makes no Sense. With My definition of Species, all of Man is a Single Species, apart From Ape Species.

LOL!!!

You say that they are Different species, because they are Separated by their Environment.

=M=

I'm going to Go Research the Flowers, now, You Better not be Pulling another Incipient Speciation;

Cause, "Incipient speciation" just means;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incipient_speciation

Which is what happened with those Salamanders, which you said Changed to A Different Kind of Animal. Even though they all Are Still Salamanders.

Not that Plants Speciating, would Prove that Animals Could Ever Speciate, but Hey, I'll Check Her Out, Anyway. Give you another Shot At Being Wrong, Like an Erroneous Trophy Hanging on the Digital Wall.

Isn't it interesting to you, that there are no Examples of Animals Speciating in nature, and you have to Reach for plants.

You do realize that Plants Reproduce Different than Animals, Right Barbie?

Also, Note how My Definition Says; Species - A Group of Living Things, that Are Capable of Reproducing.

Not your Version; Species A Group of Living Organisms, that are Capable of Reproducing, In Nature.

Even If, the two animal Species have to be Artificially Inseminated, to Reproduce, If they can Reproduce, They are the Same Species according to My Definition.

You believe that Bears are more Different than Each other, than an Ape is to a Human. However, all those Bears can interbreed, but you can't even Artificially Inseminate an Ape and Man together. Why do you think that IS? If in your belief system, Different Bears have Speciated Further, than Ape to Man?

Those Bears Will all Speciate Naturally, if you keep them in the Zoo Together. So Will a Lion and Tiger.

Therefore, All Bears Are the Same Species, Just like all Men are the Same Species.

Now, I will Go See your Flowers.

Every Type of Dog Can Interbreed, Why have none of the Different Dogs Speciated Yet?

Even Wolves which have been Kept Apart from dogs can Still Interbreed With Dogs, and even Produce Fertile Offspring, their Children are Not Hybrids!!! That Alone Shows us that Speciation does not happen.
 
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Mark SeaSigh

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Oh Man!!!! I just realized you Confused the Fruit Flies, with the Flowers!!!

HAHA At you Barbie!!!!

LOLOL!!!

=M=

Maybe that's Why Evols should stay away from using the Technical Name for Animals, and Stick to Words they Actually Understand; Like Dog, Bear, Man, and Ape. LOFREAKINL

I see you Down at the Bottom there, you Corney Catholic Evolutionist Atheist.

===================================

Music!!!

Everybody Laugh at Barbie!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
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The Barbarian

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Oh, But they Are, They are capable of Interbreeding, Every one of those Salamanders, and so is A Lion and Tiger.

No. Read it again, carefully. As you will learn, the extreme ends of the loop can't interbreed. So according to your definition, two species. You need to think about it again. Are you beginning to realize why it's so hard to define species, and why this is such a problem for creationists?

That would be like you thinking Indians from India, are a Different Species, than Brazilians, because their Environment Keeps them Apart.

Nope. Brazilians and Indians can interbreed just fine. Even most creationists now admit that is possible. People like Henry Morris have become a minority even among creationists. Ironically, the last world-class biologist to doubt evolution, agreed with you. He thought each "race" originated separately.

That Makes no Sense.

I'm glad you admit that, now. It's an important step in solving your problem. You say that they are Different species, because they are Separated by their Environment.

This is entirely wrong. As the Human Genome Project makes clear, there is more variation within any "race" you might select, than there is between such "races." Race is a social construct, not a biological reality.

I'm going to Go Research the Flowers, now

You would have been better off to learn first, and tell us about it afterwards. But it's good that you're beginning to think about evidence. I'm guessing instead of going to the scientific literature, you'll go back to the same creationists who fooled you in the first place.

You Better not be Pulling another Incipient Speciation;

Incipient speciations are especially galling for creationists, since their belief requires that there will be no such things. But if one species evolves from another, there should be many such cases, which there are.

But if you want to sell your belief as a fact, you'll have to account for them.

Which is what happened with those Salamanders, which you said Changed to A Different Kind of Animal.

Nope. Didn't say at all. I was just pointing out that your definition of "species" would have them as two different species, since they are not all able to interbreed.

Even though they all Are Still Salamanders.

Sounds like someone's looking for a way out. Why not just admit that since they aren't all able to interbreed, they are, by your definition, more than one species? Everyone sees what you wrote. Perhaps you'd like to try defining it one more time?

Not that Plants Speciating, would Prove that Animals Could Ever Speciate,

Less than 5,000 years ago, a sandbar formed and cut off Lake Nagubago from the larger Lake Victoria. Since then, at least 5 new species of cichlid fish have evolved in Lake Nagubago, and these species are found nowhere else in the entire world.(Mayr, 1970)

http://phylointelligence.com/observed.html

But you're fighting a battle creationists have already surrendered:
Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging...As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time.
https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

The ICR says that all modern species of land animals evolved by hyper evolution in a few years, from a few "kinds" kept on the Ark.

There are more examples of how different kinds of reproductive isolation cause speciation from a common kind of animal. Speciation events are documented for nearly every kind of animal that has been described, and recently it has been estimated that 10 percent of all animal species still hybridize (mate with other species, producing fertile offspring) in the wild, and even more when brought into contact with each other in captivity. This evidence indicates that most species had a common ancestor from which similar species have descended...However, it is not correct to assume that a few thousand species would have produced the millions of species extant (alive) today. There are fewer than 30,000 extant species of mammals, birds, reptiles, and possibly land-reproducing amphibians (many salamanders) that were represented on the Ark. The millions of other species are the invertebrates (>95 percent of all animal species), fish, and a few aquatic mammals and reptiles that survived in the water during the Flood. The processes of speciation discussed above need to only double the number of animal species from 15,000 to 30,000.
http://www.icr.org/article/speciation-animals-ark/

Isn't it interesting to you, that there are no Examples of Animals Speciating in nature,

See above. Dobzhansky gave you an example. The African fish took only about 5,000 years. And as you learned, even your fellow creationists sawed off the branch you were sitting on.

You believe that Bears are more Different than Each other, than an Ape is to a Human.

Yep. Pandas and polar bears, for example, are genetically so far apart, they can't interbreed. Polar bears have 74 chromosomes, and Pandas only 42. Spectacled bears have 54. So none of them can reproduce. Humans and chimps can't reproduce for the same reason. We are genetically much closer to chimps than polar bears are to spectacled bears, for example, but humans underwent a chromosome fusion at some point, making it impossible to breed a human/chimp hybrid.
chromosome2_big.gif

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/translocation.html

However, all those Bears can interbreed

No, they can't. Some species of humans could interbreed, such as Neandertals and H. sapiens. But it's doubtful of more primitive humans could have done that.

,
but you can't even Artificially Inseminate an Ape and Man together. Why do you think that IS? If in your belief system, Different Bears have Speciated Further, than Ape to Man?

Bears vary much more than humans genetically, even in chromosome number. A difference of about 16 chromosomes for the most striking difference I know. Humans and chimps have a difference of 1.

In fact, in terms of genes, humans and chimps are more closely related genetically than chimps and other apes:
Percent difference in genes humans and chimps: 0.8% (not 8 percent, eight tenths of a percent)

Humans and gorillas: 0.93%

Humans and orangutans: 1.96%

Therefore, All Bears Are the Same Species, Just like all Men are the Same Species.

Surprise. Remember when I suggested that you learn about this before you told us about it? If you don't know what you're talking about, you'll be continuously blindsided by reality.
 

Mark SeaSigh

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No. Read it again, carefully. As you will learn, the extreme ends of the loop can't interbreed. So according to your definition, two species. You need to think about it again. Are you beginning to realize why it's so hard to define species, and why this is such a problem for creationists?

Nope. Brazilians and Indians can interbreed just fine. Even most creationists now admit that is possible. People like Henry Morris have become a minority even among creationists. Ironically, the last world-class biologist to doubt evolution, agreed with you. He thought each "race" originated separately.

I'm glad you admit that, now. It's an important step in solving your problem. You say that they are Different species, because they are Separated by their Environment.

This is entirely wrong. As the Human Genome Project makes clear, there is more variation within any "race" you might select, than there is between such "races." Race is a social construct, not a biological reality.

You would have been better off to learn first, and tell us about it afterwards. But it's good that you're beginning to think about evidence. I'm guessing instead of going to the scientific literature, you'll go back to the same creationists who fooled you in the first place.

Incipient speciations are especially galling for creationists, since their belief requires that there will be no such things. But if one species evolves from another, there should be many such cases, which there are.

But if you want to sell your belief as a fact, you'll have to account for them.

Nope. Didn't say at all. I was just pointing out that your definition of "species" would have them as two different species, since they are not all able to interbreed.

Sounds like someone's looking for a way out. Why not just admit that since they aren't all able to interbreed, they are, by your definition, more than one species? Everyone sees what you wrote. Perhaps you'd like to try defining it one more time?

[OLOR="DarkRed"]Less than 5,000 years ago, a sandbar formed and cut off Lake Nagubago from the larger Lake Victoria. Since then, at least 5 new species of cichlid fish have evolved in Lake Nagubago, and these species are found nowhere else in the entire world.(Mayr, 1970)
[/COLOR]
http://phylointelligence.com/observed.html

But you're fighting a battle creationists have already surrendered:
[CLOR="DarkRed"]Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging...As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time.[/COLOR]
https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

The ICR says that all modern species of land animals evolved by hyper evolution in a few years, from a few "kinds" kept on the Ark.

[OLOR="DarkRed"]There are more examples of how different kinds of reproductive isolation cause speciation from a common kind of animal. Speciation events are documented for nearly every kind of animal that has been described, and recently it has been estimated that 10 percent of all animal species still hybridize (mate with other species, producing fertile offspring) in the wild, and even more when brought into contact with each other in captivity. This evidence indicates that most species had a common ancestor from which similar species have descended...However, it is not correct to assume that a few thousand species would have produced the millions of species extant (alive) today. There are fewer than 30,000 extant species of mammals, birds, reptiles, and possibly land-reproducing amphibians (many salamanders) that were represented on the Ark. The millions of other species are the invertebrates (>95 percent of all animal species), fish, and a few aquatic mammals and reptiles that survived in the water during the Flood. The processes of speciation discussed above need to only double the number of animal species from 15,000 to 30,000.[/COLOR]
http://www.icr.org/article/speciation-animals-ark/

See above. Dobzhansky gave you an example. The African fish took only about 5,000 years. And as you learned, even your fellow creationists sawed off the branch you were sitting on.

Yep. Pandas and polar bears, for example, are genetically so far apart, they can't interbreed. Polar bears have 74 chromosomes, and Pandas only 42. Spectacled bears have 54 (Should say 52 =M=). So none of them can reproduce. Humans and chimps can't reproduce for the same reason. We are genetically much closer to chimps than polar bears are to spectacled bears, for example, but humans underwent a chromosome fusion at some point, making it impossible to breed a human/chimp hybrid.
chromosome2_big.gif

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/translocation.html

No, they can't. Some species of humans could interbreed, such as Neandertals and H. sapiens. But it's doubtful of more primitive humans could have done that.

Bears vary much more than humans genetically, even in chromosome number. A difference of about 16 chromosomes for the most striking difference I know. Humans and chimps have a difference of 1.

In fact, in terms of genes, humans and chimps are more closely related genetically than chimps and other apes:
Percent difference in genes humans and chimps: 0.8% (not 8 percent, eight tenths of a percent)

Humans and gorillas: 0.93%

Humans and orangutans: 1.96%

Surprise. Remember when I suggested that you learn about this before you told us about it? If you don't know what you're talking about, you'll be continuously blindsided by reality.

Barbie, you must be a Glutton for Punishment, Eh?

=M=

Every one of those Salamanders are Capable of Reproducing with each other, only They are Separated by obstacles in Nature.

Believe it or not, I've always understood that all Men are the Same Species.

That is Clear in my Previous Posts, and is Obvious when you Consider my Definition of Species.

You lie, just as Bad as the Pope Gregory Lied, to start the Holy Wars.

Every one of those Salamanders can Interbreed, the Fact that Obstacles of Nature Keep them From Breeding Does not Make them a Different Species, it does not Mean they Speciated, when they can still Reproduce with Each other.

You tried to Show Speciation in Fruit Flies, but you Posted the Information about how a Certain Flower became Self Fertile instead.

Mutation is Obvious, Speciation does not Occur. That's why all those Kinds of animals have Different colors, but are still the Same Species, given they Can Interbreed.

You believe in a Fairy Tale, Barbie.

As far as your Genome Likeness, A banana tree is 60% Human.

How can Apes have 99% Likeness, if they have Two Extra Chromosomes? And we are Discussing a Number under Fifty.

If those Bears, Really Cannot Reproduce, then You really Have something, I'm gonna go See;

Barbie said:
Pandas and polar bears, for example, are genetically so far apart, they can't interbreed. Polar bears have 74 chromosomes, and Pandas only 42. Spectacled bears have 54 (Should say 52 =M=). So none of them can reproduce. Humans and chimps can't reproduce for the same reason. We are genetically much closer to chimps than polar bears are to spectacled bears, for example, but humans underwent a chromosome fusion at some point, making it impossible to breed a human/chimp hybrid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursid_hybrid

That is Interesting!!!

Barbie Finally Found Something Guys!!!!!

From Wiki;

"Bears not included in Ursus, such as the Giant Panda, are probably unable to produce hybrids."

That Probably, sounds Rather Uncertain.

I wonder, if this Information has been Found out For Certain?

http://messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-bears.htm

So, is the Giant Panda, in a Different Species Group than the Regular Panda?

All the Ursinae species (all bears except the giant panda and the spectacled bear) appear able to crossbreed and will do so if placed together; all have 72 (it should say most have 74, =M=) chromosomes except for Spectacled bears (52 chromosomes) and Pandas (42 chromosomes).

From what I'm Reading, it seems that Giant Pandas have Trouble interbreeding With Giant Pandas, Also.

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/panda-birth-rate.htm

"A lot of people view breeding programs as vital to the survival of the giant panda species. However, veterinarians and researchers have not always had much success with breeding giant pandas. In captivity, many male pandas appear uninterested in mating or do not seem to know how. For example, Ling-Ling and Hsing-Hsing, the first pair of pandas to live in the United States, tried unsuccessfully to mate for 10 years. After they eventually learned to mate, they had five cubs, but none survived to adulthood."

here is the Spectacled Bear;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectacled_bear

From the Article Above;

With increasing genetic knowledge, we now know that all Ursinae have 72 chromosomes (Should Say Most Ursinae have 74 =M=) and most will interbreed when placed together. Spectacled bears (subfamily Tremarctinae) and panda bears (subfamily Ailuropodinae) have 53 (should say 52 =M=) and 42 chromosomes respectively and do not interbreed with other living bears.

However, one thing I do find interesting is that, These Pandas and Spectacled bears have appeared to Speciate, they Still look just Like Bears.

If there really are no Hybrids of Panda or Spectacled Bear, with other 74 Chromosomal Bears, this is the Best Example, and Only true Example of Speciation that I have Ever Seen. Good Job, Barbie.

====================================

Wait!!!! Hold the Phone Barbie!!! Don't call your Mom Yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursid_hybrid

From the Article;

In 1975, within Venezuela's "Las Delicias" Zoo, a female Asian black bear shared its enclosure with a spectacled bear, and produced several hybrid descendants.[5]

That takes care of the Spectacled Bear, Now I just have to Find the Panda.

What do you make of this Spectacled bear and the Asian Black Bear; Containing two Separate Chromosome Numbers, and also being able to Still Breed with Other Bears?


I guess, as According to My Definition of Species; that the fact Two animals Have A Different Number of Chomosomes, they can still be the Same Species, You almost Got me though. I had no Idea animals with Differing Number of Chromosomes can Interbreed, until now!! Thanks Barbie that last part Proves all Bears are the Same Species Still!!!!

That means, that a Panda, can Probably Reproduce with all the Other Bears, also, but let me Keep looking, so we can Know For Sure.

Isn't it odd that that Spectacled bear, could mutate to the Point where it had Less Chromosomes than Other Bears, but could still Multiply With all the Other Bears?

And if the Spectacled bear has been Proven to Multiply with Other Bears, than Giant Panda Bear, most likely can also, Given it's Practically the Same Situation.
 
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Mark SeaSigh

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I mean, I know it's not Odd for a Lion and Tiger to multiply, given they have the Same Number of Chromosomes; But when this Spectacled bear mutated to the Point where Chromosomes were Missing, and Yet can Still Multiply with Normal Bears, that's really Something.

=M=

This bear thing, seems to just be another example of How Speciation Does not Occur. Given these Bears have Different Chromosome Numbers, but yet are the Same Species, due to the Definition of Species.

Maybe we should Stick the Panda Bear in with an Asian Black Bear, and See what Happens. ; D

============================================

OH!!! and the Chromosome Numbers Vary with other bears, that Everybody knows are Capable of Interbreeding

Black Bear = 76
Asiatic Black Bear = 74
Brown Bear = 74
Polar Bear = 74
Spectacled (Andean) Bear = 52
Asian Black Bear = 74

You almost Got me with that Panda Bear = 42 chromosomes though, Almost.

We could Figure out Every Problem in the World, right Now, Right Here, but it's never Going to Change Anything in the World.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbie, you must be a Glutton for Punishment, Eh?

I'm a very patient guy. Besides, you're helping me clear things up for anyone who's not sure about this.

Every one of those Salamanders are Capable of Reproducing with each other

Ensatina's basic story was laid out by Robert Stebbins 30 years before Tom was born in 1977. Based on the ring-like distribution of the different forms, Robert had proposed that the species started off in Northern California and Oregon and then spread south along both sides of the Central Valley, which was too dry and hot for salamanders.1

By the time they met again in Southern California as the subspecies eschscholtzii and klauberi, he argued, they had each evolved so much that they no longer interbred — even though the subspecies blended into one another around the rest of the ring. Since species are often defined by their inability to interbreed with other species, Ensatina seemed to represent the whole process of speciation — all the gradual changes that accumulate in two lineages and that wind up making them incompatible with one another.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/devitt_02

I pointed this out to you before.


You guys always fall back on that when you realize your argument is collapsing.

Every one of those Salamanders can Interbreed

Nope. The range of those two overlap, but they have evolved sufficiently that they can no longer reproduce with each other. This is why you can't do a precise definition of "species", which is absolutely essential for creationism.

You believe in a Fairy Tale, Barbie.

I don't think foolish slogans are going to help you, either.

As far as your Genome Likeness, A banana tree is 60% Human.

In fact, you have about half of all your genes in common with bacteria. Most of life's basic chemistry is true of all living things. So bananas, being eukaryotes are closer to us than either species is to bacteria, and of course, we are 95-99 percent similar to chimps, because we had a common ancestor a lot more recently than we had a common ancestor with bananas.

How can Apes have 99% Likeness, if they have Two Extra Chromosomes?

Humans and chimps have the same genes to a very close degree. But there was a fusion of two chromosomes in our lineage, keeping the same genes but on only one chromosome afterwards. Is there any evidence for this? Turns out there is. Where the fusion would have happened, there are the remains of telomeres (end pieces of chromosomes) in just the right place.

Barbarian observes:
Pandas and polar bears, for example, are genetically so far apart, they can't interbreed. Polar bears have 74 chromosomes, and Pandas only 42. Spectacled bears have 54 (Should say 52 =M=). So none of them can reproduce. Humans and chimps can't reproduce for the same reason. We are genetically much closer to chimps than polar bears are to spectacled bears, for example, but humans underwent a chromosome fusion at some point, making it impossible to breed a human/chimp hybrid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursid_hybrid

Notice all bears with the same number of chromosomes can mate successfully. It is much harder to get a successful mating with two organisms with different numbers of chromosomes, and even then, the offspring are not very fit and typically die young. This is the case with a rare hybridization of brown and black bears.

However, one thing I do find interesting is that, These Pandas and Spectacled bears have appeared to Speciate, they Still look just Like Bears.

Pretty much the way we speciated and still look like Australopithecines. Except of course, polar bears and sun bears look a lot more different than different hominins do. And they are genetically more different in most cases.

If there really are no Hybrids of Panda or Spectacled Bear, with other 74 Chromosomal Bears, this is the Best Example, and Only true Example of Speciation that I have Ever Seen.

That isn't speciation. Speciation is like those salamanders, according to your definition. Two organisms unable to sexually reproduce.

You've confused speciation and hybridization. Very occasionally, a hybrid will be able to breed with other hybrids, but not with either parent species. So sometimes, hybridization can amount to speciation, but that's not the usual route.


Isn't it odd that that Spectacled bear, could mutate to the Point where it had Less Chromosomes than Other Bears, but could still Multiply With all the Other Bears?

Sometimes Prezwalski's horse has been able to reproduce with domesticated horses, which have a different number of chromosomes. But the offspring don't survive very well, and they are unfit in the wild.

It can happen, but the offspring are normally sterile or unhealthy or both.

This is why the bears with 74 chromosomes mate so readily with each other, and why other hybrids are rare or nonexistent.
 
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