Creation vs. Evolution

[Hedshaker]

Michael there is no evidence that anything at all happens after death. All the evidence would suggest that death is the end. Everything that we are, all our thinking, ego, personality, exists in a physical brain. If that brain gets damaged it often, unless they're very lucky, changes the person radically. Serious brain damage can turn a smart person into a cabbage, even if they remain physically alive. In the same vein, the personality of dementia suffers slowly deteriorates until there is little left. How does this in any way suggest that personalities might somehow survive after their brain is gone? It doesn't.

Personally I'm fine with that. I wouldn't want to live eternally anyway, it would be horrible. After just a few hundred years I would probably be screaming for release. If anyone in my lifetime comes up with good, unambiguous evidence that suggest otherwise I'll listen. But until then I remain sceptical.

Thanks for your kind words Michael but, you see, I have a deep and meaningful relationship with reality, warts an all. You, of course, are free to believe what ever you wish.

All the best.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Alwight And Michael 7-15

Alwight And Michael 7-15

Hi Michael,
I have no desires to give you any grief or worries since you already appear to have far too much of that and it does seem that your beliefs will help you through this life at least.
On the other hand some other people are simply asking for it.
The fact is that I see no evidence for any supernatural beliefs and I am not about to become a believer anyway on someone's say so, sorry, not even yours. It's nothing to do with me not wanting to believe, it is simply that I tend to believe whatever appears to be true based on real facts and evidence.

Dear Alwight,

You're too kind and sweet to give me any grief or worries. You are a very helpful person. Oh, I know you don't want to change your belief system and that's okay with me. Who am I to tell you how to live your life? If you don't want to go with the flow, it is okay. I'm sure you have many friends who feel the same way you do. I just think that you are fun and cheerful, and I forget to address you as an atheist, Alwight. Please forgive me. An atheist who helped me no matter how long it took me to get the hang of it. And you never belittle me. We've been through some fun things so far, I think. At least to me it was.

Blindly adhering literally to an ancient scripture is something that I prefer to leave to the likes of 6days as he tries to rearrange reality to fit with his presuppositions or use those "explanations" dreamed up on creationist websites.

The ancient scripture is like our Science book or magazine. And it's the No. 1 Bestseller of all time. To me, it is a record of what has happened in the years up to now. It is a recording on paper of certain religious scientists putting their facts on paper for other people to check out. There are also still lots of people who clamor at the chance to get a hold of a copy of this Science Book, the Bible. We have freedom because of our Science Magazine telling us that this plague will happen or that one. It explains how the moon will appear as blood red or, in other words, a total lunar eclipse. We don't have to sit and think about whether it's going to be real blood or not, etc. The characters, not like Einstein or Freud, are instead in a different book is all. The Bestseller No. 1 book of all time, or else a scientific journal or OMNI magazine. Both contain stories about how this came to be and what this is made of, and it's characteristics. They both tell stories about the latest news of the days if you really think of it.

If angels visited me too Michael then maybe it would be different but for no clear reason they seem to visit only those already fully convinced, or perhaps deluded? :idunno:
:e4e:

The angels only visit those who already fully believe in them, because it won't matter or change the way they are despite it. In other words, God and Satan both know that whether God or an angel visits me or not, I still choose God to be the one I trust, and believe and love. The devil thus, knows he cannot change my mind from following God, so it doesn't hurt for the angel to actually visit, because me finding out will not change any outcome for the devil. In other words, the devil knows that even if the Lord does visit me, it's not going to change the fact that I believe in Him already and will forever. The devil can't say, oh, he only believes in you because you visited him. Do you know what I'm having a lousy time explaining to you. The devil knows that whether the Lord visits me or not, I'm still never going to leave His side and will always believe in Him for always. So that way, the devil can't say, "Well, He saw you so that's why he believes in You!"

I don't know if I can explain this well. The devil and God both know that if God visits me, the devil can't say, well you've convinced Michael to believe in you, because you went to show Himself to him already. Or because you sent him an angel, so now he believes in angels. I believed before all of that ever happened and nothing will change that, so I'm not problem either way. I am a loyal and true fan of God!! Nothing's going to ever change that fact.

I might tell someone I've got a silver dollar in my hand and they believe me even though I don't show it to them specifically. Instead, they believe me because I am their friend and they know they can trust me that, if I say I have a silver dollar in my hand, they know it's true. But now someone else might come along, not knowing me, and they would say, Show me the silver dollar in your hand first. Then I will believe you. I have to believe by seeing, not by just trusting. I can't figure out how to explain it any better, but I know I could. It's just that I'm exhausted and need a nap, lack of choice, before I can post again.

Hedshaker, I will post to you as soon as I get a little nap. I don't know what else to do. I can barely keep my eyes open. Thanks!! Until tonite!

Be Well, Alwight, And Keep Contented,

Michael

:singer: :up: :cloud9:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael there is no evidence that anything at all happens after death. All the evidence would suggest that death is the end.

Hi Hedshaker!!

We have instance over instance (case over case?) of people who have died and came back explaining what it was like dying. Most of the time, they say there was a bright light to go towards. That's human evidence that suggests that death is not the end and what happens after death. Either way, whoever is dead comes back to life again in 1,000 years for one more shot or more at making it to heaven. That's why it is written in Rev. that "and the rest of the dead did not live AGAIN until the 1,000 years were fulfilled."

Everything that we are, all our thinking, ego, personality, exists in a physical brain. If that brain gets damaged it often, unless they're very lucky, changes the person radically. Serious brain damage can turn a smart person into a cabbage, even if they remain physically alive. In the same vein, the personality of dementia suffers slowly deteriorates until there is little left. How does this in any way suggest that personalities might somehow survive after their brain is gone? It doesn't.

I know how horrible brain damage and dementia is a bad way to slowly veg out until you die. The neurons have trouble jumping the synapses. Am I right? Any way, sometimes it can be from drug or alcohol abuse. But that is not a prerequisite, because my Aunt Najla just passed away a couple of weeks ago and she had Alzheimer's and I don't think she had any drugs or alcohol in her life. She was very prudent. She left me an inheritance. I got the papers from the Lawyer a few days ago. She has a house to be sold first.

Personally I'm fine with that. I wouldn't want to live eternally anyway, it would be horrible. After just a few hundred years I would probably be screaming for release. If anyone in my lifetime comes up with good, unambiguous evidence that suggest otherwise I'll listen. But until then I remain sceptical.

If you knew how beautiful eternal life is going to be, you would not feel the way you do. Jesus Himself, when He was on the Cross, said it was Paradise. Do you know how many galaxies to check out and how beautiful they will be and how fun it will be to cruise the universe?? Probably take an eternal lifetime just to do that. I have this feeling you would NEVER want to LEAVE IT. Jesus said, "In My Father's House are many mansions. If it were not so, I would not tell you." So brace yourself. It's going to be awesomely beautiful and exquisite!! I will just love it. Plus, from what I understand, you get to guide those you love who did not make it to heaven this time to turn his/her life around so that they all can be with you in heaven too. What if you make it to eternal life in Heaven, and someone you love is on earth wanting to know how do they get to Heaven. You can help guide them there by speaking to with mental telepathy.

Thanks for your kind words Michael but, you see, I have a deep and meaningful relationship with reality, warts an all. You, of course, are free to believe what ever you wish.

All the best.

Hedshaker, you are very welcome and I am very thankful that our care and friendship was able to survive the debacle from a couple of days ago. That shows you really do care, I think. I also have a deep and meaningful relationship with reality, warts and all. We're not so different after all. One little word or two could change the whole direction of your life. I do hope that happens. At least so far we are very civil and caring. I see how you all have to argue sometimes with others. Jesus taught me that love was much better and he was very right. It suits me like a glove.

May Your Day Be Filled With Wonderful Feelings And Memories,

Michael

:singer: :up: :cloud9:

 

[6days]

Evolutionists will tell you they have found 'human' bones hundreds of thousands of years old. But there are also scientists who state these bones are only a few thousand years old.

.... Only those with a specific religious agenda, those who adhere literally to their favourite ancient scripture remain struggling idiotically against the tide of reason, rationality and empirical reality.

I think it would be an interesting debate as to which side is 'struggling idiotically against the tide of reason, rationality and empirical reality'. Empirical reality is that life does not come from non life. Rationality is that fine tuning and specified complexity is evidence of our Creator. Irrationality is believing our fine tuned universe popped into existence from nothing, or that there are multiple other universes.

Uranium decays into lead. Scientists can very accurately measure the rate of decay. Based on the percentage of decay, dates are assigned.

BUT--- One big assumption with this is that God's Word is wrong, and that he did not create everything in 6 days. They assume that lead is only a result of millions and millions of years of uranium decay. However, if their assumption is wrong, and if God did create everything, then their dates are totally wrong. Or, to try explain that differently... we dont know what the initial percentages of uranium and lead are when God created. Evolutionists assume God didnt create and that there was no lead.

Science examines the evidence as it is, while there is no rational reason or methodology to make any allowances or assumptions for any miraculous or a supernatural.

Science is about knowlege and truth. There is no reason to exclude a supernatural creation from consideration other than religious / atheistic beliefs.

The earth and universe seem old only because that is what is you have been taught. From the time kids are two years old they are taught by 'Barney' and other kids shows that everything is nillions and millions of years old. When you go to school the indoctrination continues. Few teachers in high school would ever say "If God created as stated in Genesis, radiometric dating is wrong" Generally, all we are ever taught is that things are millions or billions of years old.... so Christians believe that then compromise on what Gods Word clearly teaches.

Most science teachers simply teach the true facts, and what has been concluded from them, because they believe it is true, which can be demonstrated and shown to be so or else falsified, often during a science class.

Yes...true, however that is false about origins 'science'. In origins, or historical science, it is beliefs which are taught. The beliefs of evolutionists are continually being proven false by science. Students need to be taught critical thought allowing them to question different interpretations of the evidence.

If no regard is given to a literal Genesis or Creationism in science classes then tough, go find some evidence and science that supports it and then you can teach it as demonstrably factual and scientific

The same can be said of evolutionism... Your religion does not belong in science classes. Teachers should stick to presenting evidence and teaching students *how to think....not what to think. Parents (not school teachers) who believe God created, as well as parents who are atheists, should teach their kids why they believe as they do.

 

[Hedshaker]

Hi Hedshaker!!

We have instance over instance (case over case?) of people who have died and came back explaining what it was like dying. Most of the time, they say there was a bright light to go towards. That's human evidence that suggests that death is not the end and what happens after death. Either way, whoever is dead comes back to life again in 1,000 years for one more shot or more at making it to heaven. That's why it is written in Rev. that "and the rest of the dead did not live AGAIN until the 1,000 years were fulfilled."

No Michael, you have that wrong. What your are talking about there is called NDE - near death experiences. Did you see the emphasis on the word near? Near death is close to death except for one small detail....they are not actually dead. The brain is still functioning, and on some rare occasions the patient actually recovers - this is the real world, anything can happen. Odd though isn't it that reported NDE's often match the already established beliefs of the person making the claim? And of course, some survive near death and report no religious experience at all. Bummer, eh?

But don't take my word for it , read for yourself:

Neuroscience

I know how horrible brain damage and dementia is a bad way to slowly veg out until you die. The neurons have trouble jumping the synapses. Am I right? Any way, sometimes it can be from drug or alcohol abuse. But that is not a prerequisite, because my Aunt Najla just passed away a couple of weeks ago and she had Alzheimer's and I don't think she had any drugs or alcohol in her life. She was very prudent. She left me an inheritance. I got the papers from the Lawyer a few days ago. She has a house to be sold first.

Sorry to hear about your Aunt Michael but happy to hear about your inheritance. But you are right, and what is being discussed here should tell you something important. The I, the self, the ego, what you would call the soul, is totally and inescapably linked to a material brain. Thinking is a function of the brain. There can be no thought, no I, no self, no soul without a material brain and there is NO evidence to suggest otherwise. Take a minute Michael and take that in............. Conciousness only exists while a living, functioning brain allows it. If a brain is damaged due to trauma, alzheimer's, ageing or what ever then the brain suffers diminished functionality accordingly. And when the brain is dead the I, the self, the soul is also dead. This is what the evidence suggests. Are you with me Michael? Because I don't think I have the wherewithal to explain it any simpler.

If you knew how beautiful eternal life is going to be, you would not feel the way you do. Jesus Himself, when He was on the Cross, said it was Paradise. Do you know how many galaxies to check out and how beautiful they will be and how fun it will be to cruise the universe?? Probably take an eternal lifetime just to do that. I have this feeling you would NEVER want to LEAVE IT. Jesus said, "In My Father's House are many mansions. If it were not so, I would not tell you." So brace yourself. It's going to be awesomely beautiful and exquisite!! I will just love it. Plus, from what I understand, you get to guide those you love who did not make it to heaven this time to turn his/her life around so that they all can be with you in heaven too. What if you make it to eternal life in Heaven, and someone you love is on earth wanting to know how do they get to Heaven. You can help guide them there by speaking to with mental telepathy.

Michael, Michael... you're preaching. Anyone can preach about anything. But trust me, for everyone but the choir it makes the eyes glaze over. I really don't take pleasure in bursting your bubble because, as Alwight says, your faith may well be a comfort to you in difficult times. But for me, staying true to myself, acceptance of real genuine truth is the ultimate comfort. If the self dies when the brain expires then there is no eternal life. It's over. Kaput. Done. But, in away you are right because new life carries on. Every single one of us is only here because of a long, long line of ancestral survival. You would not be here now if your great great grand parents didn't survive against the odds, and they in turn the same.

The Selfish Gene

Hedshaker, you are very welcome and I am very thankful that our care and friendship was able to survive the debacle from a couple of days ago. That shows you really do care, I think. I also have a deep and meaningful relationship with reality, warts and all. We're not so different after all. One little word or two could change the whole direction of your life. I do hope that happens. At least so far we are very civil and caring. I see how you all have to argue sometimes with others. Jesus taught me that love was much better and he was very right. It suits me like a glove.

Of course I frigging well care. Do you think I would spend this time replying if I didn't care? But no Michael, what you really have is a deep and meaningful relationship with your indoctrination. You have even followed 6days into a young earth belief which I truly believe you know deep down to be false. It is false. The universe and the earth are billions of years old, Beliefs can lie but evidence, not so much

May Your Day Be Filled With Wonderful Feelings And Memories,

And you too Michael.

 

[alwight]

I think it would be an interesting debate as to which side is 'struggling idiotically against the tide of reason, rationality and empirical reality'. Empirical reality is that life does not come from non life. Rationality is that fine tuning and specified complexity is evidence of our Creator. Irrationality is believing our fine tuned universe popped into existence from nothing, or that there are multiple other universes.



Science is about knowlege and truth. There is no reason to exclude a supernatural creation from consideration other than religious / atheistic beliefs.




Yes...true, however that is false about origins 'science'. In origins, or historical science, it is beliefs which are taught. The beliefs of evolutionists are continually being proven false by science. Students need to be taught critical thought allowing them to question different interpretations of the evidence.




The same can be said of evolutionism... Your religion does not belong in science classes. Teachers should stick to presenting evidence and teaching students *how to think....not what to think. Parents (not school teachers) who believe God created, as well as parents who are atheists, should teach their kids why they believe as they do.

Thanks for demonstrating some more "struggling idiotically against reality" 6days. :third:

 

[noguru]

Thanks for demonstrating some more "struggling idiotically against reality" 6days. :third:

The poor fellow just does not get it. And he pretty much just ignores any evidence he does not like. So I don't think reality has any priority in his list of priorities.

 

[Stuu]

The same can be said of evolutionism... Your religion does not belong in science classes.

Science says put up or shut up. Darwin put up. No one has since put up anything valid that is essentially any different.

But if you think evolution by natural selection has it wrong, then by all means put up. Put up your explanation of how there come to be millions of living species. Make sure your explanation is supported in evidence and is falsifiable, that is, it makes testable predictions.

Otherwise, science says shut up.

Whatever passes that test should be taught in science.

Stuart

 

[MichaelCadry]

No Michael, you have that wrong. What your are talking about there is called NDE - near death experiences. Did you see the emphasis on the word near? Near death is close to death except for one small detail....they are not actually dead. The brain is still functioning, and on some rare occasions the patient actually recovers - this is the real world, anything can happen. Odd though isn't it that reported NDE's often match the already established beliefs of the person making the claim? And of course, some survive near death and report no religious experience at all. Bummer, eh?

But don't take my word for it , read for yourself:

Neuroscience

Dearest Hedshaker,

I don't care if there is life after death, but it is written in my 'journal', just as scientific journals or articles are written, that "the rest (remainder) of the dead did not LIVE AGAIN until the 1,000 years were fulfilled (passed) (Rev. 20:5). Also, to really get to the point, it is also written and recorded, that Jesus rose a little girl from the dead and also His friend, Lazarus, from the dead. Notwithstanding that He Himself was brought back to life after three days of being dead (by Our God's Hand). How many people of the world have THAT encyclopedia (Bible) at home, which records for us, what happened. Now we can say that the Bible is not a scientific journal, but is a tradeoff for it. It's just science versus life's record in truth.

Still, I see every bit of what you mean, most of them are near death experiences. But not all. If you want us to believe your scientific journals, you have to then believe our life's records, our Bible. Not one of your scientific journals has a greater circulation than our Bible. By far.

Sorry to hear about your Aunt Michael but happy to hear about your inheritance. But you are right, and what is being discussed here should tell you something important. The I, the self, the ego, what you would call the soul, is totally and inescapably linked to a material brain. Thinking is a function of the brain. There can be no thought, no I, no self, no soul without a material brain and there is NO evidence to suggest otherwise. Take a minute Michael and take that in............. Conciousness only exists while a living, functioning brain allows it. If a brain is damaged due to trauma, alzheimer's, ageing or what ever then the brain suffers diminished functionality accordingly. And when the brain is dead the I, the self, the soul is also dead. This is what the evidence suggests. Are you with me Michael? Because I don't think I have the wherewithal to explain it any simpler.

Thank you so much for your condolences for my Auntie; she was my favorite Aunt for so long because, after her husband died, it was like she sacrificed her own life to take care of her mother and another sister, until they both died. And I am also very thankful to the inheritance!! Yippee. I will be leaving behind an inheritance to those I love also, but nothing as large as hers.

Michael, Michael... you're preaching. Anyone can preach about anything. But trust me, for everyone but the choir it makes the eyes glaze over. I really don't take pleasure in bursting your bubble because, as Alwight says, your faith may well be a comfort to you in difficult times. But for me, staying true to myself, acceptance of real genuine truth is the ultimate comfort. If the self dies when the brain expires then there is no eternal life. It's over. Kaput. Done. But, in away you are right because new life carries on. Every single one of us is only here because of a long, long line of ancestral survival. You would not be here now if your great great grand parents didn't survive against the odds, and they in turn the same.

The Selfish Gene

You are forgetting about a couple/few of my notable differences that I wrote of earlier in this post. And you can also be sure that there will be many who will lay dead for 1,000 years, and then be given another chance at life. So it's a long time to sleep. But the rest of us will be up for those 1,000 years, and learn much more from Jesus and God, and we'll with no doubt, find many times to have fun and play like kids. Or a nice long tour of perusing our galaxy, and our Universe, which includes other galaxies. And if any of them look better than Saturn, I'll be doing head stands. You have no idea, Hedshaker, what you'll be missing out on. And we will be able to move/travel a lot farther, not being subdued by a mortal body, but instead become only our soul and the energy/spirit within it which never dies.

Of course I frigging well care. Do you think I would spend this time replying if I didn't care? But no Michael, what you really have is a deep and meaningful relationship with your indoctrination. You have even followed 6days into a young earth belief which I truly believe you know deep down to be false. It is false. The universe and the earth are billions of years old, Beliefs can lie but evidence, not so much

And you too Michael.

I am SO GLAD that you do Care!! I guess you can tell that I love you as a person/son. It happens! I feel the same way about a few others on TOL here. Perhaps I do also have a deep and meaningful relationship with my indoctrination. It's a possibility. Yes, Hedshaker, I'm still wondering how God will explain that to me, you know, the Universe and Earth seeming to be so old. But He could have made them that way. We can, with makeup and incredible masks, we can look older than we are too, shockingly so. Just by peeling off a polyurethane or latex? mask. Isn't that what they make them out of? Very lifelike. Well buddy, I know that there are certainly some things hidden from us that we would love to know, but we still can keep our love from our Creator, and find out from Him later, how He did it all. It's not so bad. I sure know I have a lot of questions for Him!! Please do not regret that you still care for me and that you wish I were off on an eternal train away from you.

Many Joyful Years Harbor A Place For You,

Michael



:singer: :cloud9:

 

[Hedshaker]

Dearest Hedshaker,

I don't care if there is life after death, but it is written in my 'journal', just as scientific journals or articles are written, that "the rest (remainder) of the dead did not LIVE AGAIN until the 1,000 years were fulfilled (passed) (Rev. 20:5). Also, to really get to the point, it is also written and recorded, that Jesus rose a little girl from the dead and also His friend, Lazarus, from the dead. Notwithstanding that He Himself was brought back to life after three days of being dead (by Our God's Hand). How many people of the world have THAT encyclopedia (Bible) at home, which records for us, what happened. Now we can say that the Bible is not a scientific journal, but is a tradeoff for it. It's just science versus life's record in truth.

Michael, the Bible is not a science book nor is it a history book. It is a selection of religious texts penned and collected by people. Those authors and the canon were pre science people. As you know people are fallible. They sometimes err, exaggerate, lie, are subject to confirmation biases, especially when they are trying to impress. You can either blindly believe everything they say or you can examine the evidence (there's that telling word again). And the evidence tells a different story. No one comes back to life after clinical death as occurred. No female can give birth without a male of the species being involved. Walking on water defies gravity unless trickery is involved. So a little open minded scepticism is called for regarding the extraordinary claims. We know there are some factual entries in the Bible that are more mundane but they do not in any way validate the extraordinary claims.

Still, I see every bit of what you mean, most of them are near death experiences. But not all. If you want us to believe your scientific journals, you have to then believe our life's records, our Bible. Not one of your scientific journals has a greater circulation than our Bible. By far.

There is no factual evidence of anyone ever coming back to life after clinical death. None at all. If a patient "flat lines" doctors have a number of options they can do to try and revive the patient. Sometimes they work, sometimes not. If a patient regains heart beat after being shocked eg. then clearly that patient was not brain dead. Once a patient is brain-dead then the evidence suggests the person is gone forever and there is no empirical evidence to suggest other wise. The Bible is not evidence. It is a faith belief.

Thank you so much for your condolences for my Auntie; she was my favorite Aunt for so long because, after her husband died, it was like she sacrificed her own life to take care of her mother and another sister, until they both died. And I am also very thankful to the inheritance!! Yippee. I will be leaving behind an inheritance to those I love also, but nothing as large as hers.

:up:

You are forgetting about a couple/few of my notable differences that I wrote of earlier in this post. And you can also be sure that there will be many who will lay dead for 1,000 years, and then be given another chance at life. So it's a long time to sleep. But the rest of us will be up for those 1,000 years, and learn much more from Jesus and God, and we'll with no doubt, find many times to have fun and play like kids. Or a nice long tour of perusing our galaxy, and our Universe, which includes other galaxies. And if any of them look better than Saturn, I'll be doing head stands. You have no idea, Hedshaker, what you'll be missing out on. And we will be able to move/travel a lot farther, not being subdued by a mortal body, but instead become only our soul and the energy/spirit within it which never dies.

You will have to forgive me Michael but I see no rational point in relying to preaching. Evidence is good. Preaching not so much.

I am SO GLAD that you do Care!! I guess you can tell that I love you as a person/son. It happens! I feel the same way about a few others on TOL here. Perhaps I do also have a deep and meaningful relationship with my indoctrination. It's a possibility. Yes, Hedshaker, I'm still wondering how God will explain that to me, you know, the Universe and Earth seeming to be so old. But He could have made them that way. We can, with makeup and incredible masks, we can look older than we are too, shockingly so. Just by peeling off a polyurethane or latex? mask. Isn't that what they make them out of? Very lifelike. Well buddy, I know that there are certainly some things hidden from us that we would love to know, but we still can keep our love from our Creator, and find out from Him later, how He did it all. It's not so bad. I sure know I have a lot of questions for Him!! Please do not regret that you still care for me and that you wish I were off on an eternal train away from you.

There certainly are many things hidden to us. Fortunately, for us who are alive now, there has developed a rational method for probing into the unknown. Science is the most reliable endeavour in our history for gaining knowledge, not perfect, but tried and tested and it ain't going away any time soon. It is designed to overcome confirmation bias and it works well for the most part. Theology, religion, mysticism and the like have been an epic fail for thousands of years. Its day is done. If there really is to be a "new age" then let it be based on rationality, logic. reason and evidence.

Many Joyful Years Harbor A Place For You,

Michael

Regards :up:

 

[6days]

The same can be said of evolutionism... Your religion does not belong in science classes.

Science says put up or shut up. Darwin put up. No one has since put up anything valid that is essentially any different.

But if you think evolution by natural selection has it wrong, then by all means put up. Put up your explanation of how there come to be millions of living species. Make sure your explanation is supported in evidence and is falsifiable, that is, it makes testable predictions.

Otherwise, science says shut up.*

Whatever passes that test should be taught in science

Evolutionists want religion taught in science class, but only if it is their religion.

Stuu...you confuse evolutionism with science. Science is knowledge and the search for knowlege, following the evidence no matter where it leads.

Atheistic evolutionism is a religion /scientism, in which conclusions must exclude the Creator God of the Bible. Atheistic evolutionism is a religion that is willing to accept conclusions which are counter intuitive to the evidence. *Evolutionism and creationism are not science; they are opposing belief systems.

Science and the scientific method is "systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

Evolutionism - the belief in a common ancestor can't be observed. Creationism and evolutionism only observe things in the present, then make conclusions about the past.

Likewise evolutionism / creationism can't be measured, and you cant do r r r repeatable experiments in the past. We can do experiments in the present then make conclusions about the past. (We can study and do experiments on mutation rates, fossils etc. then draw conclusions about the past, based on our worldviews)

I believe in the Creator God of the Bible who loves me so much, He went to the cross for me. I believe the creation account recorded in the 'History Book of the Universe'. Stuu....I hope some day you open your heart and mind to our Creator.

 

[noguru]

Likewise evolutionism / creationism can't be measured, and you cant do r r r repeatable experiments in the past. We can do experiments in the present then make conclusions about the past. (We can study and do experiments on mutation rates, fossils etc. then draw conclusions about the past, based on our worldviews)

All experiments are done in the present and used to draw conclusions about the past. You do not object to this methodology when it does not contradict your interpretation of Genesis.

:think:

 

[noguru]

I believe in the Creator God of the Bible who loves me so much, He went to the cross for me. I believe the creation account recorded in the 'History Book of the Universe'. Stuu....I hope some day you open your heart and mind to our Creator.

Where does Genesis say it was meant to be a "History book of the universe"?

 

[Stuu]

Evolutionists want religion taught in science class, but only if it is their religion.

Stuu...you confuse evolutionism with science. Science is knowledge and the search for knowlege, following the evidence no matter where it leads.

Atheistic evolutionism is a religion /scientism, in which conclusions must exclude the Creator God of the Bible. Atheistic evolutionism is a religion that is willing to accept conclusions which are counter intuitive to the evidence. *Evolutionism and creationism are not science; they are opposing belief systems.

Science and the scientific method is "systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

Evolutionism - the belief in a common ancestor can't be observed. Creationism and evolutionism only observe things in the present, then make conclusions about the past.

Likewise evolutionism / creationism can't be measured, and you cant do r r r repeatable experiments in the past. We can do experiments in the present then make conclusions about the past. (We can study and do experiments on mutation rates, fossils etc. then draw conclusions about the past, based on our worldviews)

I believe in the Creator God of the Bible who loves me so much, He went to the cross for me. I believe the creation account recorded in the 'History Book of the Universe'. Stuu....I hope some day you open your heart and mind to our Creator.

So what science would you have teachers present concerning the origin of species?

That we don't know?

Christianity: a celebration of ignorance.

Stuart

 

[6days]

Evolutionists want religion taught in science class, but only if it is their religion.

Stuu...you confuse evolutionism with science. Science is knowledge and the search for knowlege, following the evidence no matter where it leads.

Atheistic evolutionism is a religion /scientism, in which conclusions must exclude the Creator God of the Bible. Atheistic evolutionism is a religion that is willing to accept conclusions which are counter intuitive to the evidence. *Evolutionism and creationism are not science; they are opposing belief systems.

Science and the scientific method is "systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

Evolutionism - the belief in a common ancestor can't be observed. Creationism and evolutionism only observe things in the present, then make conclusions about the past.

Likewise evolutionism / creationism can't be measured, and you cant do r r r repeatable experiments in the past. We can do experiments in the present then make conclusions about the past. (We can study and do experiments on mutation rates, fossils etc. then draw conclusions about the past, based on our worldviews)

I believe in the Creator God of the Bible who loves me so much, He went to the cross for me. I believe the creation account recorded in the 'History Book of the Universe'. Stuu....I hope some day you open your heart and mind to our Creator.

So what science would you have teachers present concerning the origin of species?

Exactly....what science??*

Discussing origins is discussing beliefs. Science teachers should have the academic freedom to discuss different interpretations of evidence, as well as strenths and weaknesses of competing ideas.*

That we don't know?

Well that would be refreshingly honest to admit you dont know, but that you believe a certain way because of evidence.*


Evolutionists would have saved themselves a lot of embarrassment over the years had they admitted they don't know something, rather than jump to faulty conclusions- *which are later proven wrong by science. *

Christianity: a celebration of ignorance.

I understand why you feel that way Stuu. However, *Christianity is a belief based on real historical people and events verified by historians and archaeologists. In fact, Gods*Word*urges Christians to have evidence based faith. It is atheistic evolutionists who excercise blind faith that life came non life.*

 

[MichaelCadry]

Where does Genesis say it was meant to be a "History book of the universe"?

Dear noguru,

In Gen. 1:8, it says that God created the Heaven. It states it again in Gen. 1:1. What is our Heaven?? It is part of the Universe. This Bible book of Science explains where darkness and light came from, and the dry land or ground, the Seas, the grass, man and woman, etc. All of the things that the Science books are full of. But the Science books can write about them, but the Best Selling Book of All Time, Can't?? He says the host of Heaven were created by Him. That is the Universe! Just the beginning. All of what man could handle back in those days. Noguru, we're both Christians. I do think the Bible should get at least the same recognition as a Scientific Journal or whatever. What book has made the most money, and that, considering that many copies of this book are given away for free??

Now play fair.

In God's And Jesus' Love For You And Those You Love,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael, the Bible is not a science book nor is it a history book. It is a selection of religious texts penned and collected by people. Those authors and the canon were pre science people. As you know people are fallible. They sometimes err, exaggerate, lie, are subject to confirmation biases, especially when they are trying to impress. You can either blindly believe everything they say or you can examine the evidence (there's that telling word again).

To Hedshaker,

I hope we can remain good friends whether we don't agree about everything. I'm for it if you are and hope you are! I feel the Bible to be definitely a History Book and also a partial science book. They may have been prescience people and possibly fallible persons also, but we have the exact people doing that here today. And we do have people here who err, exaggerate or lie purposefully. We must examine the evidence as time progresses and the future becomes the present and past.

And the evidence tells a different story. No one comes back to life after clinical death as occurred. No female can give birth without a male of the species being involved. Walking on water defies gravity unless trickery is involved. So a little open minded scepticism is called for regarding the extraordinary claims. We know there are some factual entries in the Bible that are more mundane but they do not in any way validate the extraordinary claims.

The History written in the Bible says that those things actually did occur and I definitely agree with it. Who would think similar things if we told those people we had walked on the Moon, have landed on Mars, have cloned animals, they would not believe half of what we've done. Don't forget that Jesus also made a few fish and loaves of bread becomes enough for 5,000 people. That's really a hard one to believe, but it's in our History book, us Christians, and whoever would like to believe also. The history book says that Abraham Lincoln was shot and assassinated, and my history book says they killed Jesus, and innocent man and a 'prophet' and more, in the same way as they killed a thief; on a Cross.

There is no factual evidence of anyone ever coming back to life after clinical death. None at all. If a patient "flat lines" doctors have a number of options they can do to try and revive the patient. Sometimes they work, sometimes not. If a patient regains heart beat after being shocked eg. then clearly that patient was not brain dead. Once a patient is brain-dead then the evidence suggests the person is gone forever and there is no empirical evidence to suggest other wise. The Bible is not evidence. It is a faith belief.

Dearest Hedshaker, my History book says it happened to a young girl, a man, and a 'prophet/son of God'. They rose back to life after being clinically dead. Let's all write to the Enquirer. It says in my History book that it even happened one more time to a young girl after Jesus had been gone already; by Peter, one of His disciples. The young woman's name was Tabitha. See my History Bible Book chapter Acts 9:36, 37. That's four counts right there. No more functioning nervous system, yet brought back to life again. That's by God putting the spirit of Life back into a person just as it came out of them when they died; the same spirit of Life or energy that made the image on the Shroud of Turin. Since I have made a mistake before, just wait until this comes to be known as truth. The same way your Science book says let's wait and we will find out what black holes are.

My History book has real people who are not liars and they lived, and experienced what is written. Just like you have a Science book which has real people who are not liars and they lived, and experienced what was written. Time has not proven some of them out yet either. That doesn't mean to scoff at them, but to just wait and see. My History book mentions of tons of history, 'manna' being provided by God so that the Hebrews had something to eat and even a freak quail storm to give them meat to eat. And if God has a messenger in spirit form/an angel tell someone in human form/myself to share their information with my people, then you bet your sweet butt that I certainly will. And I shall not keep quiet about it, for that would not go over well for me or others at all!

You will have to forgive me Michael but I see no rational point in relying to preaching. Evidence is good. Preaching not so much.

There certainly are many things hidden to us. Fortunately, for us who are alive now, there has developed a rational method for probing into the unknown. Science is the most reliable endeavour in our history for gaining knowledge, not perfect, but tried and tested and it ain't going away any time soon. It is designed to overcome confirmation bias and it works well for the most part. Theology, religion, mysticism and the like have been an epic fail for thousands of years. Its day is done. If there really is to be a "new age" then let it be based on rationality, logic. reason and evidence.

Regards :up:

But, Hedshaker, that's what 'history man' or 'science man' does. They both use words to express themselves/preach, to others around them. It starts usually as one or two men discovering something (like how to build an ark; how to speak to others about Jesus and his prophecy and works). "Science is the most reliable endeavor in our history (no it's not); and it ain't going away anytime soon (yes, it is). People will be too busy operating rototillers, many using the older version ('till the land': plow with beasts of burden). Science is going to take a back burner while this world heals from balm put on it by the Lord Jesus and I would not see too much of science going on at all for a while. We will also not be undertaking any space missions, etc. We will be trying to grow fruits, vegetables, etc. to stay alive. The meek shall inherit the earth. There shall not be a lot of scientists or technical personnel hanging around. People who make gasoline out of oil shall be in short or no supply. No one will know how it was done. Gas will run out. Cars shall become useless fast. You really don't understand what's going to happen. Almost all of our luxuries shall be gone. It shall take awhile before even electricity is back, if at all. No A/Cs, no heaters, no electric refrigerators or stoves, fans or ovens. No Bic Lighters sooner or later. No cigs. No beer or spirits for a long while. All of the people who do these things with their knowledge shall have gone off of the earth. The meek remain. No bullets soon enough. Hopefully we'll still have matchsticks. If one of the meek knows what chemicals to put on the end of a piece of wood, there shall be little wooden matchsticks. And now who is going to make those little tiny sticks out of tall trees?? It's going to be harder than you think. Better you had gone to heaven this time around. Who's going to work at the nuclear stations so that we have electricity and bombs?? And what about palatable water and toilets, or sewer systems?? Much disease and more death. It's going to be a mess down here, without any mechanical equipment to get around because of the earthquakes, and downed trees, disappearing roads from those quakes, gas soon running out in certain areas, so you can't run your machines. Who knows if anyone will be around to figure out how to operate an oil rig and make gasoline out of oil?? And forget about going to Starbucks for coffee. You will have to brew it over a fireplace. How are they going to run their deep fryers at McDonald's and Burger King, or Jack in the Box?? I'm not trying to be a naysayer here, but when I found all of this out, I was in mourning for years. When I first heard Jesus was coming soon, I was on Cloud 9. When I then found out about the aftermath of Armageddon, I was in sackcloth and great mourning for years, deeply troubled. But now it's okay because I know God's Plan, and it will work quite NICELY in the end. It will be wonderful then.

Okay, this too lengthy, Hedshaker. Don't be bummed at me. The new History Books in High School and College don't mention all this, eh?? Well, I would suggest you toss them and start reading the book that matters. You know what I mean?? You're going to wish you were going to Heaven, believe me. What happens on earth will be easy compared to hell, or the lake of fire (which is tons hotter).

Try to still be a close friend of mine. You will learn things from me that matter to you very much.

Let A Glimpse Of The Future Bring You Solace!!

Michael

:cloud9: :singer: :up:

 

[alwight]

Well that would be refreshingly honest to admit you dont know, but that you believe a certain way because of evidence.*


Evolutionists would have saved themselves a lot of embarrassment over the years had they admitted they don't know something, rather than jump to faulty conclusions- *which are later proven wrong by science. *

What do you know 6days?
Science goes on because we don't know not because we think we do.
If we had all the answers then there would be no need for science.
Knowledge of everything would simply be available to access about anything in words we could read.
Whatever you wanted to know wouldn't need evidence, discovery or experiment, simply believe what you are told by a scripture, simple.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Where does Genesis say it was meant to be a "History book of the universe"?

Where does a Science book say it is meant to be a "History book of the Universe?" Science book wannabee? There is not even ONE such a book. Maybe there are successions of such a compilation. Still wouldn't matter, because most of them say it MAY have been this way or that.

Love You Regardless,

Michael


:cloud9:

:jump:

 

[noguru]

Where does a Science book say it is meant to be a "History book of the Universe?" Science book wannabee? There is not even ONE such a book. Maybe there are successions of such a compilation. Still wouldn't matter, because most of them say it MAY have been this way or that.

Love You Regardless,

Michael


:cloud9:

:jump:

Right, because people who truly understand science realize that evidence suggests certain conclusions, it does not dictate them. Some conclusions are suggested more strongly than others though.