Creation vs. Evolution

[Hedshaker]

~*~*~

Wow,....this thread has taken off with a life of its own, ever 'adapting' to new ingrams of information

My last contributions and thoughts on the subject of 'creation/evolution' here.

Life is what it is, and has within it its own potentials, which apparently do 'evolve', 'grow', 'adapt', 'innovate', 'translate'. That is what Life is about in a cosmos of change, which is 'continuous creation'.

That an all-pervading consciousness and universal spirit also infuses, permeates and encompasses the cosmos is also 'evident' to both 'consciousness' and the senses',...since the universe and existence itself would not 'be' apart from that living consciousness or 'mind' which perceives and knows.


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In-joy



pj

You're not the only on who has cool pictures. I am also Justified

:guitar:

 

[noguru]

That is not what closed means in a physics context, which you specified. Closed means no matter flows across the boundaries, but that isn't true for living cells. Is closed what you meant?

Individual cells don't become more complex in evolution. When do they become more complex in your mind?

'Useful information' is not a term that gets much use in physics: how do you define or measure it so that we can have a useful discussion about it?

You seem to be making use of a lot of private word definitions - could you stick to the usual meanings, please?

Daft_Dave is equivocating? Oh no! Say it isn't so.

:shocked:

 

[noguru]

While I'm discussing evidences from science... You wish to divert to discussing other events in the Bible.

You are the one who keeps claiming that science confirms your interpretation of Genesis, which is part of the Bible. You open the door, and then cry foul when the sunlight comes shinning through. Perhaps you have fooled yourself to think other people do not see your double standard. But not all of us fool ourselves as you do.

 

[doloresistere]

Our universe appears designed by a super intelligence.

It is lousy design if you ask me. God did not design exactly what we see today. What we see today is one of many possible outcomes after God ruled out a certain portion of outcomes.

Codes, as in DNA, require a code maker,

But DNA is not a code like computer code. It is a molecule that produces RNA. That RNA produces a string of amino acids. Sometimes, that string reacts with other molecules. It is those particular reactions that have proved beneficial to the continued replication of the original DNA molecule that tend to become preserved by virtue of the preservation of the DNA segment that originally produced it. After several cycles of this, you end up with what looks like code, but it really isn't because it was never programmed by a thinking being. [/QUOTE]

 

[6days]

On the contrary, alwight... It is you who is anxious to fall for conclusions that fit your belief system.

We know bacteria have anti-biotic resistance long before antibiotic drugs were created.

There is ZERO evidence of any evolutionary past... it is only beliefs

.

However I was simply quoting your own link that you seemed to think had denied evolution but which was nothing of the kind it seems.

You are having difficulty separating facts from evolutionary speculations. The article is about bacteria that have antibiotic resistance long before modern antibiotic medicine. That is what the evidence indicates.

You picked up on a speculative line from the article talking about evolutionary pathways.... There is no evidence of that. That is part of the belief system of evolutionists We know bacteria have anti-biotic resistance long before antibiotic drugs were created.

There is ZERO evidence of any evolutionary past... it is only beliefs

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave we are turning the corner about to make another complete circle. Give it up, it is obvious that you have a very superficial and therefore inaccurate view of the world around you.

Your attempts to bring a Hollywood movie in now as a lame example will prove as fruitless as your last attempts at misdirection and misrepresentation. Are you really up for another round?

I do have to admire your persistence. I just wish you would channel that in the right direction.

I highlighted the only relevant part of your post. That is accurate. Replication is not always exact. Sometimes a copy has "errors". Do you know what they call a copy that has "errors"?

The Matrix is an analogy to the difference in epistemology between rationalism and empiricism. That's it. It does not work as an analogy to genetic variation and natural selection. Taking the red pill is equivalent to "piercing the bubble of illusion/delusion", that is the strategy of many eastern religions. As well as what Jesus wanted us to do. Unfortunately your choice was to take the blue pill.

Merovingian: You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: Evolution. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.

Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.

Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without...This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control. Evolution. There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it.

--Dave

 

[noguru]

You are having difficulty separating facts from evolutionary speculations. The article is about bacteria that have antibiotic resistance long before modern antibiotic medicine. That is what the evidence indicates.

You picked up on a speculative line from the article talking about evolutionary pathways.... There is no evidence of that. That is part of the belief system of evolutionists We know bacteria have anti-biotic resistance long before antibiotic drugs were created.

There is ZERO evidence of any evolutionary past... it is only beliefs

Wrong again. We have evidence from geochemistry of anaerobic life that was similar to modern bacteria. They are called prokaryotes. We also have evidence that eukaryotes appear after that. We know this from the mats left by stromatolites dating back prior to 3 billion years ago. There are still a few places where these life forms thrive in shallow sees.

stromatolites

prokaryotes

eukaryotes

 

[noguru]

Merovingian: You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: Evolution. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.

Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.

Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without...This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control. Evolution. There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it.

--Dave

Are you seriously relying on Hollywood's use of the term "evolution" in a science fiction movie as evidence for some claim you are making regarding science?

 

[6days]

Our universe appears designed by a super intelligence.

It is lousy design if you ask me. God did not design exactly what we see today. What we see today is one of many possible outcomes after God ruled out a certain portion of outcomes

You obviously don't believe in the Creator God of the Bible, nor in His Word. Your God is a bit incompetent?

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, that is wrong. You need to open your scope to the whole H2O cycle. Net information in the universe does not increase/decrease (FLoT/Einstein's Relativity), but there is a vast amount of movement and change of the position of that information. The use of that information is constantly in flux. It is that change that creates increases of H2O in some places while at the same time decreases in other localities.

Jukia's example however, was intended to demonstrate how gravity (which seems to have little if any purpose on its own) can serve a function for other events in the universe.

Just as water flows downward so does information from a "gene pool".

Get the point now?

--Dave

 

[noguru]

Just as water flows downward so does information from a "gene pool".

Get the point now?

--Dave

No, that is not an accurate analogy. Biodiversity will tend to reach an equilibrium like water reaches a certain level depending on various factors. But genetic variation continues at a certain rate. The rate is not random, but the types of changes are. Your idea that information (gain or loss) in DNA is somehow affected by gravity is not supported by any evidence.

 

[MichaelCadry]

You obviously don't believe in the Creator God of the Bible, nor in His Word. Your God is a bit incompetent?

Dear 6days,

To your adversaries: How in the world can you not understand that a Vastly Intelligent God created this Universe and our Earth. Do you know what the odds of Earth being habitable is?? Do you know that there are ripples of gravity flowing outward from the Big Bang? And the Universe in increasing in size every day. Is that Awesome or what? No, this Universe didn't just come to be. It is written that God created the Universe: the earth, sun, moon, stars, the hosts of heaven, even other galaxies and black holes... I could go on but don't need to. We are the Milky Way, the place for adult babies to wean off of God's milk as we grow. That's why He put the words into someone's thoughts to call it the Milky Way. Few of you really know what's going on, really.

Much Love To All In God's Name,

Michael

 

[doloresistere]

You obviously don't believe in the Creator God of the Bible, nor in His Word. Your God is a bit incompetent?

I do believe in the creator....the God of Abraham. He created a lot of flexibility into his creation and he is not a authoritarian. He did not create things to stay static and not change. He also did not create things to be what humans call "perfect". He set up some laws and created some boundary conditions and then largely let it fall into place. One of those boundary conditions were slight variations in quantum fields? I cannot remember what the term was exactly. I know that these variations were responsible for allowing matter to form in clumps like we see today. He let things largely progress on their own without his interference. This is exactly how he operates today. But, he didn't just let any possible thing happen that could happen. He set up guidelines and he stepped in at particular times to make sure events matched up with his guidelines. This left room for a whole lot of variability. Your god made things a certain way(plain vanilla) with no ability to adapt or change. He is a static god.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Dear 6days,

To your adversaries: How in the world can you not understand that a Vastly Intelligent God created this Universe and our Earth. Do you know what the odds of Earth being habitable is?? Do you know that there are ripples of gravity flowing outward from the Big Bang? And the Universe in increasing in size every day. Is that Awesome or what? No, this Universe didn't just come to be. It is written that God created the Universe: the earth, sun, moon, stars, the hosts of heaven, even other galaxies and black holes... I could go on but don't need to. We are the Milky Way, the place for adult babies to wean off of God's milk as we grow. That's why He put the words into someone's thoughts to call it the Milky Way. Few of you really know what's going on, really.

Much Love To All In God's Name,

Michael

Sorry Michael, the universe is not expanding, no black holes, no big bang.

http://www.fixedearth.com/electric.html

It is necessary to understand that the central plank of the EUM is this: "Stars are electrical transformers, not thermonuclear devices."(9)

For example, the arbitrary speed limit that Einstein set on light immediately bites the dust in the EUM. "The speed of light is not a barrier," we are told

(10). More Einstein-bashing is evident in these words of EUM physicist, Wal Thornhill: "Time travel is impossible"; "Space has no extra dimensions in which to warp or where parallel universes may exist"; " There are no neutron stars or Black Holes."(11)

As to "black holes", Thornhill gives his conclusions about Einstein and his devotees:

"It seems to me that Einstein made it fashionable for theoretical physicists to live in their heads and perform "thought experiments". It is one thing to frame hypotheses by day-dreaming but to think that experiments are carried out by sucking on a pipe in an armchair is pure "Disneyesque" fantasy. Einstein’s theory of gravity is the craziest explanation of the phenomenon imaginable.



Lets not forget about the big bang.

As to those alleged distances to galaxies, another able EUM advocate reminds us that the establishment idea that "...galactic distances can be determined by redshift is an assumption [and the] only basis of the further extrapolation that the universe is expanding and the only reason for believing that there ever was a big bang."(7)

 

[noguru]

Sorry Michael, the universe is not expanding, no black holes, no big bang.

http://www.fixedearth.com/electric.html

It is necessary to understand that the central plank of the EUM is this: "Stars are electrical transformers, not thermonuclear devices."(9)

For example, the arbitrary speed limit that Einstein set on light immediately bites the dust in the EUM. "The speed of light is not a barrier," we are told

(10). More Einstein-bashing is evident in these words of EUM physicist, Wal Thornhill: "Time travel is impossible"; "Space has no extra dimensions in which to warp or where parallel universes may exist"; " There are no neutron stars or Black Holes."(11)

As to "black holes", Thornhill gives his conclusions about Einstein and his devotees:

"It seems to me that Einstein made it fashionable for theoretical physicists to live in their heads and perform "thought experiments". It is one thing to frame hypotheses by day-dreaming but to think that experiments are carried out by sucking on a pipe in an armchair is pure "Disneyesque" fantasy. Einstein’s theory of gravity is the craziest explanation of the phenomenon imaginable.



Lets not forget about the big bang.

As to those alleged distances to galaxies, another able EUM advocate reminds us that the establishment idea that "...galactic distances can be determined by redshift is an assumption [and the] only basis of the further extrapolation that the universe is expanding and the only reason for believing that there ever was a big bang."(7)

Have you been eating those mushrooms that grow in cow dung?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Have you been eating those mushrooms that grow in cow dung?

Nope.

The god of this world is a liar.

And if Michaels angels told him the universe is expanding, they are too.

 

[DFT_Dave]

That is not what closed means in a physics context, which you specified. Closed means no matter flows across the boundaries, but that isn't true for living cells. Is closed what you meant?

Individual cells don't become more complex in evolution. When do they become more complex in your mind?

'Useful information' is not a term that gets much use in physics: how do you define or measure it so that we can have a useful discussion about it?

You seem to be making use of a lot of private word definitions - could you stick to the usual meanings, please?

Cells degenerate, break down, gradually wear out over time. They go from a state of order to less order--disorder, and even death. Information for replication dissipates in one way or another. This is entropy.

We have go back to the first "simple" cell in the evolution of life. The early cells were of course not "simple" in that they were not complex, but were simple in that as they evolved they became more complex as more information is added over time. But that would negate entropy.

The cell cannot be "open" to the addition of more information if it is moving toward less information--entropy.

The information in a genetic code must come all at once.

--Dave

 

[6days]

How in the world can you not understand that a Vastly Intelligent God created this Universe and our Earth.

Well Michael...yes, in some ways its difficulty to understand. But, in other ways, we should expect people will reject God and His Word.

Do you know what the odds of Earth being habitable is??

Yes....the odds are 100% because God made the earth habitable. His Word, and science show earth is a very specially designed place.

Do you know that there are ripples of gravity flowing outward from the Big Bang?

The Big Bang is contradictory to Gods Word, in many ways.

No, this Universe didn't just come to be. It is written that God created the Universe: the earth, sun, moon, stars, the hosts of heaven, even other galaxies and black holes.

Other galaxies and black holes??? I. Dont I think my Bible says that.

But one thing the Bible does say about the stars that is quite fascinating is that they are as in numerical as this sands of the seashore. At a time when some people thought there was less stars than grains of sand in 1 bucket-- God was saying that the number of stars was on a scale they couldn't imagine. Today we know there are more stars in the heavens than grains of sand from all the ocean shores in the world.
And another cool thing Gods Word tells us is that God created each star unique.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Are you seriously relying on Hollywood's use of the term "evolution" in a science fiction movie as evidence for some claim you are making regarding science?

The word evolution does not appear in the script or used in the movie.

I substituted the word "causality" with the word "evolution" to make the point the evolution takes away "choice".

Human "choice" --freedom, or free will, is not possible in an evolving world, it's an "illusion".

I also wanted to let you know what the movie was clearly about.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, that is not an accurate analogy. Biodiversity will tend to reach an equilibrium like water reaches a certain level depending on various factors. But genetic variation continues at a certain rate. The rate is not random, but the types of changes are. Your idea that information (gain or loss) in DNA is somehow affected by gravity is not supported by any evidence.

I didn't say information was effected by gravity, it's effected by entropy, a break down not a building up, as an analogy.

--Dave