ECT Comments from an ex-charismatic preacher

themuzicman

Well-known member
Okay, you are very understandably confused about this.
1 Cor 14 is ONLY referring to a church setting.
What happens outside in one's personal relationship
with God is a totally different matter entirely!

Except that there is nothing in Scripture about tongues outside of a corporate setting. Tongues occurs three times in Acts, in Acts 2 (Pentecost, launch of the Church), Acts 10 (Cornelius' household, inclusion of Gentiles), and Acts 19 (John's disciples).

Even the purpose of tongues is corporate. Joel 2 refers to it as a sign of Israel's eschatology. In 1 Corinthians 14, it is a sign to unbelievers.

The only other mentions of tongues in the New Testament are in 1 Corinthians, and all those references are within the context of Church.
 

Cross Reference

New member
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV)

Question: Why the need to prophecy to yourself?

This spoken of by Paul as his private time with the Lord:

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.[/I]


This that comes next is when in the church:

16 [But] when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,
that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:14-19 (KJV)

Paul was NEVER complelled to speak in tongues at all either in the church or in private. Perhaps you think he was. Perhaps also that if you believe tongues were strickly for edifying the church then anytime Paul spoke them in private, he was of the devil.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (KJV)

Notice the negative, here, as Paul just finished saying that the charismatic gifts are for the common good.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV)

Question: Why the need to prophecy to yourself?

Why would you need to speak tongues to yourself?

This spoken of by Paul as his private time with the Lord:

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.[/I]

The Greek construction is very interesting, here. The pairing of two identical verbs (twice) withe "de kai" creates am emphasis on the second use, praying/singing with the mind. The importance of pairing tongues with understood speaking is paramount.

This is NOT about private tongues. This is about interpreting them.

This that comes next is when in the church:

16 [But] when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Again, a negative regarding uninterpreted tongues.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,
that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:14-19 (KJV)

Again, uninterpreted tongues are viewed negatively. "In church" is an emphasis on where this ought to be taking place.

Paul was NEVER complelled to speak in tongues at all either in the church or in private. Perhaps you think he was. Perhaps also that if you believe tongues were strickly for edifying the church then anytime Paul spoke them in private, he was of the devil.

Except that Paul never says that he spoke them in private. Every instance here is tongues spoken in the Church. The contrast isn't to whom tongues are spoken, but their lack of value when uninterpreted, especially compared to prophecy. Paul's point here is that speaking in tongues frequently or voluminously is useless without interpretation.

I agree that no one is compelled to speak in tongues.

However, one cannot speak in tongues without the direction of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will only direct speaking in tongues where there is interpretation, as per Paul's instruction regarding tongues further down.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Notice the negative, here, as Paul just finished saying that the charismatic gifts are for the common good.



Why would you need to speak tongues to yourself?



The Greek construction is very interesting, here. The pairing of two identical verbs (twice) withe "de kai" creates am emphasis on the second use, praying/singing with the mind. The importance of pairing tongues with understood speaking is paramount.

This is NOT about private tongues. This is about interpreting them.



Again, a negative regarding uninterpreted tongues.



Again, uninterpreted tongues are viewed negatively. "In church" is an emphasis on where this ought to be taking place.



Except that Paul never says that he spoke them in private. Every instance here is tongues spoken in the Church. The contrast isn't to whom tongues are spoken, but their lack of value when uninterpreted, especially compared to prophecy. Paul's point here is that speaking in tongues frequently or voluminously is useless without interpretation.

I agree that no one is compelled to speak in tongues.

However, one cannot speak in tongues without the direction of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will only direct speaking in tongues where there is interpretation, as per Paul's instruction regarding tongues further down.

If you are baptized by in/with the Holy Spirit you can pray in tongues anytime you wish BECAUSE it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the praying not you, [we don't know what to pray about anyway]. Praying in the Holy Spirit might mean you praying for a saint who is alone and in danger, perhaps a life or death struggle going on. BUT, one must be baptized as on the day of Pentecost to be fruitful in this..
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
If you are baptized by in/with the Holy Spirit you can pray in tongues anytime you wish BECAUSE it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the praying not you, [we don't know what to pray about anyway]. Praying in the Holy Spirit might mean you praying for a saint who is alone and in danger, perhaps a life or death struggle going on. BUT, one must be baptized as on the day of Pentecost to be fruitful in this..

So, what you're saying is that you control the Holy Spirit? You tell the Holy Spirit when to speak in tongues through you?
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Because Paul says otherwise:

10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
If you are baptized by in/with the Holy Spirit you can pray in tongues anytime you wish BECAUSE it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the praying not you, [we don't know what to pray about anyway]. Praying in the Holy Spirit might mean you praying for a saint who is alone and in danger, perhaps a life or death struggle going on. BUT, one must be baptized as on the day of Pentecost to be fruitful in this..
Mucho correctamente! ...
Thou are thus given a reprieve of needing to
retire early due to the advanced age of thouself.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
So, what you're saying is that you control the Holy Spirit?
You tell the Holy Spirit when to speak in tongues through you?
This is entirely a fair question!
But, personally I'm really not qualified to respond to it ...
I do not have the spiritual power gift of tongues (1 Cor 12).
But, I do have several other of the 9 gifts listed in 1 Cor 12.
 

Cross Reference

New member
This is entirely a fair question!
But, personally I'm really not qualified to respond to it ...
I do not have the spiritual power gift of tongues (1 Cor 12).
But, I do have several other of the 9 gifts listed in 1 Cor 12.

What's fair about it? Even Jesus never told the Holy Spirit what to do or say.T Does not the scriptures teach us that Holy Spirit is made subject to the Prophet? Sorta places a responsibility upon the Prophet, doesn't it?
 

ZacharyB

Active member
What's fair about it? Even Jesus never told the Holy Spirit what to do or say.T Does not the scriptures teach us that Holy Spirit is made subject to the Prophet? Sorta places a responsibility upon the Prophet, doesn't it?
It's always fair for one to ask a question, if he/she is sincerely seeking the answer.
Or can thouest always discern who and when a person is being sincere?
 

Cross Reference

New member
It's always fair for one to ask a question, if he/she is sincerely seeking the answer.
Or can thouest always discern who and when a person is being sincere?
You can't seem to tell the difference between asking a fair question and it being fair to ask one. I wonder about you.
 

musterion

Well-known member
[video]https://securemedia.iheart.com/media/station_content/1258/2015/10/mp4/default/opal_covey_confronts_fred_0_1444823053.mp4[/video]
 
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