A few verses for consideration:
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Is Glory correct? Does 'sin' bring death or are we born under the condition? The first verse seems to say 'desire' lures us to sin. Did God create us purposefully to 'desire' sin? My first sin was likely lying. I remember such as one of my first anyway. I had squirted Vaseline on a tree. I was four and my step father told us he was going to spank the one who did. It turns out that all of us had done it, but I think I was the first. I wasn't meaning to do anything wrong, but 'spank' had me lying that I did not do it and I was frightened (he was mean, and inappropriate for spanking us frankly). Yet, I sinned and I knew it was wrong to lie. Did that sin come from me, or from without me?
Isaiah 40:6,7;29-31; 64:6,7
Once we get to chapter 64, the text clearly says 'all' and takes no account at all for 'innocent' children.
Psalm 103:14 Ezekiel 34:16 God had promised to 'seek that which is lost.'
Romans 3:9-13 All are 'under sin.' Even if one argued that sin must be done, for death to occur, it seems this verse is clearly saying we are born 'under' the curse of sin, not free of it. Going back to James, it 'seems' that the enticement is not how God made us, but that we are born with a desire, that leads to acting upon those very impulses that we are 'under.'
Isn't it 'what comes out of us, that makes us sinners/unclean?' Matthew 15:18-20; 23:25-28
1 John 1:8-10 How soon would a child understand 'not' to claim they have not sinned? Four? "Timmy, did you do this?" Timmy: "No...."
If Timmy is lying, and we as parents know he isn't always telling the truth, where does it come from (assuming you or I weren't tards like my stepfather)?
Luke 18:16 Jesus says to let the children come unto Him. He then says 'for the Kingdom belongs to such as these.' #1 What kingdom? Is it specifically Jewish? If so, then it isn't talking about Innocence, but inheritance and I'm thinking of MAD by such. If it is about Heaven, I'd still want to know if we are assuming 'innocence. Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 18:2-6 that faith and malleability are the child-like desires or virtues He wants us emulating, not their morality. To me, if my morality is only developed as a child's, I'd not really be very moral. I'd lie, steal, and hit my sister and want my food when I want it as well as throw what my wife made upon the floor if I didn't like it.
Just thoughts. Assail them as you will, I'm just wanting to discuss scriptures and have them make sense from a 'sinless birth' perspective because at the moment, they don't. Thanks. -Lon
