ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

[Nick M]

And 1 John, as well as the rest of the writings to the circumcision are not for us. They are all useful for study, as all scripture is. But not our doctrine. Especially Hebrews.

 

[glorydaz]

Lol, oy vey - He is referring to those guiltless of what those not showing them mercy for, were not showing them mercy for - their Prophets: whom they had often condemned and plotted against; for example.

Lol - I've long lost track of how many passages you and Tam have been reading things into, towards your argument on this thread.

Not as many as the passages you read things into.


Unlike you, Danoah, I'm not constrained when I read the word of God.

The disciples were being accused of breaking the law (sin), but they were actually without guilt. Just as Adam's descendants are being accused of Adam's sin, but they are actually without guilt.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

My comment was a joke. Like I said, you are newer here. There was a poster here, well, he is still here, he doesn't post any more. Before the post purging he had 50,000 posts. He was robotic. He did not study the Bible, he studied commentaries. He also said "google may also help".

I could bring you up to speed with some ridiculous things people have said on TOL if you want. Some of it is really funny. Some of it is dangerous because they try to pull people from the faith.

Wait... What's wrong with plagiarism? :idunno:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

And 1 John, as well as the rest of the writings to the circumcision are not for us. They are all useful for study, as all scripture is. But not our doctrine. Especially Hebrews.

Ok... Nick... First... I am Jewish by blood and I had to learn the "Torah" growing up... But... second... I know I'm going to catch hell for this... but I am a fire breathing Zionist of biblical proportions and I understand biblical dispensation.

I will put it this way...

2 Timothy

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

That was denoting that Paul... Christ's Grace dispensational emissary, wrote this book. Now...

2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

Now... This is the second time you've said this. Please find what you said in scripture as I have and refute me.

Other wise, NEVER say such a thing again! You are making a grave error and exalting the teachings of MEN with your words. Show me in scripture... word for word, what you just said, or please know that if you do this again, I will not only challenge you and all the wonderful people who would support you, but I will ensure that dispensation is scripturally separated from words like you just spoke here.

Is Paul now a liar? Are we Meshak that rejects "scripture"? Is ALL scripture a lie? Shall I correct my bible for you Nick?

Not only do you refuse to answer specific questions I have asked you, but you are trying to govern what portions of the bible I read and understand by the ONLY teacher of scripture (1 John 2:27 and Mt. 23:8).

Tell me Jesus' Red Letters aren't for me to read and you will have a storm of scripture to expose what this is actually doing. It is not a good thing.

I won't back down and I will forever admit when I am wrong. Nick... only men have suggested this.

Jesus, nor Paul, nor the little rock said what you say here... This is very, very, very BAD!!!

I even acknowledge the 2 dispensations and that the 12 are different than Paul, but if Paul says "All scripture" and "Nick M" says "Not all scripture"... Who is in error here?

 

[glorydaz]

I am not suggesting we disobey because Adam disobeyed I am saying men are born with a sin nature as a result of Adam's disobedience

If we are born with a sin nature, then Adam was, too, because he sinned just like we do.

Why don't you just admit that "sin nature" is actually "human nature"?

 

[Nick M]

Ok... Nick... First... I am Jewish by blood and I had to learn the "Torah" growing up...

There is no Jew or gentile in Christ. The Lord divorced national Israel over adultery. He has made promises that he says he will keep. But that is not now.

But... second... I know I'm going to catch hell for this... but I am a fire breathing Zionist of biblical proportions

Why would you catch hell for this? Those things do not apply to me. Or anybody today. The modern state of Israel is not of God. He did not place them there.

scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

No kidding. So what. Do you offer up a bull without spot or blemish? Why or why not. Did you build a 300 cubit long chest? Why or why not. It still isn't for you, even though we study it.

You are making a grave error and exalting the teachings of MEN with your words.

No, those are the words of Paul. Sorry you don't know.

Galatians 2

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

Paul and his doctrine is found Romans through Philemon. And you study it and Acts of the Apostles in parallel, you will find things that are not for today. Like power over the flesh from Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

YET sinners?

5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

As for God's dealings with Adam and Eve after The Fall, and or the basis of His dealings with them despite their enmity in their flesh, from that Fall's point, forward?

The coming Cross of Christ was His basis.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

In His forbearance, as He looked ahead to the Cross, and to that day wherein He would announce the following, He passed over their sin.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

At this time?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Great verses all, but none of them say man has been saddled with Adam's sin.

 

[dodge]

Evil.Eye.<(I)>;4985627]Sin Nature? Again... Adam was a picture of one "without" a Sin Nature... lest we now say the Almighty wanted us to sin... and yet... he "sinned". What gives? :idunno:

Thank you I was distracted when I posted the sin nature comes through Adam and Jesus had an earthly mother NOT an earthly Father, and there was a reason for that.

Um... did you word this correctly? Jesus did "need" to have an "Earthly" mother to accomplish this... (Heb. 2:14) ... am I misunderstanding you or did you accidentally make a typo?

Yes, as I said above I was dis reacted this morning.

I'm not in discussion of the remedy yet, as I believe people have totally missed the "Cause" for the "Need" of the remedy. But... lets evaluate this...

There was a reason Jesus had no earthly father.

Sin Nature passed down through "Adam"... This is interesting, because Adam sinned and according to your premise, God created Adam with a "Sinless Nature", but once Adam "Sinned", we inherited this "Sin Nature". Again... here is the "I'm" a cripple argument. We all screw up... YES! But did God ensure we would "Screw Up"? Or is there only ONE that is actually GOOD and perpetually RIGHTEOUS in the "Flesh"? "Good Teacher"... "Why do you call ME GOOD"? "Only God is GOOD"... (Jesus winking from the very pages of scripture at us)

Even though man is born with a sin nature there is still no real excuse ! Scripture says every man is drawn away through his "own" lust and when lust conceives it produces sin and sin produces death.....Where id man's lust come from I would argue it comes from his sinful nature.

Removed the Nature of Sin from the FLESH of Jesus? That's interesting... Because scripture says He was "Tempted in every manner that we are", yet HAD NO SIN. Either God magically made that "SIN NATURE" go away and "Rigged the Deck", or God is the only being that is fully RIGHTEOUS in the FLESH and capable of living a SINLESS life. Hmmmmm.... I know God had no SIN. This is obvious. But, perhaps you are undercutting the underlined point of "NOT BEING LIKE GOD". Only God is GOOD. Do you "See" it?

Jesus was truly man without a sin nature just as Adam was showing that Adam chose to disobey God
he did NOT have to sin.

Because Adam laid his life down in recognition of his "Love" for EVE. He willingly disobeyed! He couldn't defeat Death, but he could embrace "Death" with Eve.

That is making an excuse to sin. Adam disobeyed God period.

Do you Note that Jesus is cited as the very meaning of the "Bronze Serpent" in John 3? Who was the real curse? Who's Power did Jesus overturn? I'm just not buying the rhetoric that is undercutting the fact that WE ALL FALL SHORT of the (Heb. 1:3). I don't need an excuse to mess up... I simply do. But by the GRACE of GOD, there Go I.

Yes, I have read and prayed over the analogy of the bronze serpent many times.
Bottom line of the analogy is look to Jesus for forgiveness as they looked to the bronze serpent to be healed we look to Jesus and only Jesus to be saved from the sting and poison of sin.

oic... How's that inability to take personal responsibility going for you?

I dealt with all of that at the foot of the cross in 1978.

There goes Hebrews 4:16 ... and what about ... (1 John 2:1) ... Shoot ... How about (1 John 1:8) or Hebrews 4:15? What gives Dodge? This wording doesn't seem to gel with actual scripture.

Why was Jesus born without an earthly Father ? Surely there was a reason !

How is this anything imputed by Adam? Didn't we see this in Adam "As Well" and without the excuse of a nifty "Sin Nature"? Don't ALL FALL SHORT of the Heb. 1:3?

That death thingy came from Adam how do you explain that death is a result of sin. Even though babies die never having sinned ?

Hasn't this been my OP point? Who committed the "Original Sin"? Who did Christ "Defeat"? Adam? Heb. 2:14.

offered the forbidden fruit to Adam and he ate HE DID NOT HAVE TO. You are placing the blame on Satan when it was Adam who DISOBEYED God .

Satan tempted Eve she chose to disobey God she did NOT have to. Eve gave the forbidden fruit to Adam and he chose to sin. Satan tempted Eve and Adam disobeyed.

Are you sure you don't simply Sin because we make mistakes and are blessed with Free Will and a Loving God that desires SINCERITY over HUMAN PERFECTION?

We sin because that is our nature to sin but we are responsible because of our nature that is what we chose to do.

I mean... Yes... Jesus was Fully HUMAN, but HE was also FULLY GOD... (With a limited Foreknowledge... might I add... after all... only the FATHER knew.) But isn't the point that HE ALONE is our propitiation found in this... (2 Tim. 2:13)

We agree Jesus is the only propitiation there is no other.

Because God numbered the years of mankind. We also were protected from the impact of immortal lives that would have been steeped in and impacted by the WISDOM of Good and Evil... did you catch that...? Knowledge is an "Idea", but Wisdom "carries experience".

Like the experience of Adam disobeying God and with that experience would have been trapped in living in sin had God not covered him with animal skins.

So... God rigged every human life's deck for failure, because of Adam? I'm still not buying it. I'm fine with ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY of GOD, so expecting ourselves or others to BE LIKE GOD is utterly "WORTHLESS".

Again why do you suppose Jesus had no earthly Father there was a reason otherwise God what purpose did that serve ?

Indeed... When He Judges, it is steeped with perfect "GOOD WISDOM", LOVE, MERCY and HUMILITY, thus He alone is "Worthy" to be Judge.

True.

Why... it makes sense that the 24 elders cast their CROWNS at His feet, if you look at it that way.

He alone is Holy and righteous.

 

[glorydaz]

When you say this... people assume you speak of "Carnal" righteousness and jump on the idea that we are "works" based. This is hilarious, because you are clearly emphasizing our ability to choose to walk with Christ.

If what the Augustine crowd insists was true, then Enoch would not have been able to walk so closely with God that He was taken "Home" with God.

It's funny how the very people that attribute "wickedness" to God, are continually looking to attack those of us that seek to Glory the perfection of Jesus' Love for all humanity and His perfection of Justice, Humility and Mercy!

Put simply, the doctrine of original sin is the foundation of all false doctrine. The very idea gives man an EXCUSE and God says we have none. Worse, it does despite to our great and Righteous God.

 

[dodge]

If we are born with a sin nature, then Adam was, too, because he sinned just like we do.

Why don't you just admit that "sin nature" is actually "human nature"?

So you think God created Adam to disobey Him ?

Why did God command Adam to not eat off of that tree ? You are ignoring that God said do not and Adam did.

No matter the reason both Adam and Eve disobeyed God and they did not have to. YOU are also ignoring that Jesus did not have an earthly father and there was a purpose for that. WHY do you believe Jesus did not have an earthly Father ?

 

[dodge]

Put simply, the doctrine of original sin is the foundation of all false doctrine. The very idea gives man an EXCUSE and God says we have none. Worse, it does despite to our great and Righteous God.

And here I thought God was sovereign !!!! Our opinion does not change what God has decreed and that is in Adam all die and in Christ all live.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

There is no Jew or gentile in Christ. The Lord divorced national Israel over adultery. He has made promises that he says he will keep. But that is not now.




Why would you catch hell for this? Those things do not apply to me. Or anybody today. The modern state of Israel is not of God. He did not place them there.



No kidding. So what. Do you offer up a bull without spot or blemish? Why or why not. Did you build a 300 cubit long chest? Why or why not. It still isn't for you, even though we study it.



No, those are the words of Paul. Sorry you don't know.

Galatians 2

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

Paul and his doctrine is found Romans through Philemon. And you study it and Acts of the Apostles in parallel, you will find things that are not for today. Like power over the flesh from Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Again... you have now shown that Paul acknowledged Both Emissaries and Dispensations, yet you continue to flippantly dismiss 2 Tim. 3:16. Why? Because I'm in disagreement with you on a matter and you are trying to limit the scope of the scripture I use.

You sir are being biblically dishonest!

2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

Do I believe Paul or Nick M?

About "power over the flesh". Only Jesus has this "Power" and He alone can grant when it is in force.

I acknowledge that the Kingdom Gospel holds significant prophecy into what we will see when Christ returns and the "Dry Bones" are fulfilled as what they have always been prophesied to be...

There is meaning that is critical to us in the book of James.

You dismiss it by saying... "Paul lied". I say that my "works" are Christ Himself, and when we are "moved" to show Love and Compassion, when we would typically fail at this as mere mortals... it is the very Spirit that gives us Life and is Alive, though we be dead... using us for HIS GLORY! Are we not HIS HANDS AND VERY MEMBERS? Do you not know that your body is the "temple" of God? (Romans 8:9)

We are saved by Faith... ALONE! Any works of our "Flesh" are dead. We do not "fruit inspect", but Nick M... He uses you every day and you don't even know it. He pours through us in His utter Grace, Love and Mercy. Our debt is paid in full and we are used by Him. Any good we do is not US but Him, once we recognize that we are Paid for in FULL.

This flows with Corinthians and the "Clay Jars".

Does not Galatians and Romans say we "Put on Christ" like a "robe or cloak"? I am a mere, forgiven, sinful mortal and Jesus is my literal Armor.

How can you miss this?

We can do "well", though we screw up all of the time, but Jesus always Does Good!

And Nick... I stand with the persistent Widow of Today and the Day of the Lord. I'm no fair weather Zionist!

 

[dodge]

God cursed the serpent, and He cursed the ground.

God also killed animals to cover Adam and Eve with skins and He also kicked them out of the garden of Eden. He also made child bearing painful and placed women under the authority of men.

Gen 3:16
¶
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

[Nick M]

You didn't answer my question, and I don't dismiss using scripture for doctrine. I told you Hebrews is not for me. That is using scripture for doctrine. Now, did you build a 300 cubit long wooden chest for salvation from a flood? Are you not really using all scripture for your doctrine?

 

[glorydaz]

Augustine Original Sin... takes away mans ability to naturally "SEEK GOD". This again proves that we are capable of "Seeking God out" and in doing so, are grasped by God through our "Faith".

Augustine Original Sin denies this and shows man to be incapable of "Seeking Righteousness" or in more specific terms... Seeking God out through "Faith" in his Goodness, Mercy and Love.

Yes, and it's why we must fight against it.

 

[glorydaz]

God also killed animals to cover Adam and Eve with skins and He also kicked them out of the garden of Eden. He also made child bearing painful and placed women under the authority of men.

Gen 3:16
¶
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Discipline....not a curse. A chastening for man's own good. That "toil" of both the man and woman brought forth blessings as well.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes, and it's why we must fight against it.

It is well known that Augustine is the very "foundation" of "Calvinism". This is an unmistakable truth. Well said. I must "reject" the "plan" of "God" and interject the "teachings of men" to adhere to it's foul insinuations!

:thumb:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You didn't answer my question, and I don't dismiss using scripture for doctrine. I told you Hebrews is not for me. That is using scripture for doctrine. Now, did you build a 300 cubit long wooden chest for salvation from a flood? Are you not really using all scripture for your doctrine?

Again... Paul says "ALL". I have an idea Nick. Build a time machine, go back to the "Garden of Eden" and ask Jesus to speak through Paul correctly when He speaks the word ALL. Once this is accomplished and the actual scripture changes... I'll be on the same (currently) "non-existent" scriptural "page" as you.

 

[glorydaz]

In deep understandings of wickedness and the originator of wickedness, it is always said that "children" are the favored target of wickedness personified. The corruption of a child's faith in the goodness of God and the Loving nature of God is what I believe God is speaking of here... (Matthew 18:6)

Yeah, little children are without guile, until they learn what guile is when it is practiced on them.
They are trusting, until they learn people can't be trusted.

Matt. 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!​

 

[glorydaz]

Google may also help.

And Bible Gateway is a God-send. :thumb: