ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Can't be enslaved until you obey him.

In deep understandings of wickedness and the originator of wickedness, it is always said that "children" are the favored target of wickedness personified. The corruption of a child's faith in the goodness of God and the Loving nature of God is what I believe God is speaking of here... (Matthew 18:6)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I can show with scripture that ENMITY between GOD and man was NOT part of the curse of the fall.
The enmity mentioned is the enmity between mankind and the serpent, not enmity between mankind and GOD.
Why are you adding an enmity between GOD and mankind to the story????


No one has said a thing about the father of Eve's children not being Adam.
Try to stay on topic, Nang.
The story of the fall of Adam and Eve DOES NOT mention any enmity between GOD and mankind.
It DOES mention enmity between the serpent and mankind.



Do you seriously think that GOD walking and talking with Adam AFTER the fall is enmity between them?
Was GOD lovingly covering their nakedness an act of ENMITY between them?
Looks to me like GOD never abandoned His relationship with Adam. GOD is still conversing with Adam and his children, as we see Him encouraging Cain to do well.

The irony... you understated this matter. You said you could show them with scripture. The full weight of this is you could show them with "ALL" scripture. Imagine that... (2 Tim. 3:16f) comes in handy "all" of the time.

:thumb:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Experience with your hypocrisy.

And... you "accuse" of "hypocrisy"... by what charges?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Lol, oy vey - He is referring to those guiltless of what those not showing them mercy for, were not showing them mercy for - their Prophets: whom they had often condemned and plotted against; for example.

Lol - I've long lost track of how many passages you and Tam have been reading things into, towards your argument on this thread.

Danoh,

So... You deny the connection of the quoted passage with these scriptures?

Matthew 9:13
Hosea 6:6
Mark 2:17
Luke 5:32
1 Tim. 1:15

The beauty of this is the full implications of the impact of Augustine Original Sin. People that believe in their utter helplessness to avoid sin like to say that they do not commit sins of "commission" because they cannot help the sin that they are helpless to commit. This affords people to go before God and essentially claim that they aren't actually "Willful Sinners", but helpless human beings cursed to "sin" by God Himself.

Note that this logic makes God the "Tempter".

The individual that "REJECTS" Augustine Original Sin is led to deeper understanding of GRACE because they go before God in admission that they "Willfully Sin" and are thus "SICK".

How does this impact a believer's walk? The believer extends the Gospel of Grace on a deeper level and has the ability to connect with all people as a "Willful Sinner".

The Augustine Crowd has this enormous story and theology to explain that they are saved by God for the Sin they couldn't help but commit because "God" made them sinners before they were born.

Hmmmmmmmm... This sounds like a deceit and lie crafted to impute wickedness on God and excuse the failures of mankind.

Imagine that.

It precedes the "He who had no sin" part and essentially says "He who sinfully made us sinners, died for the sin that He cursed us to commit."

Is that the Gospel?

I say... "I am a sinner that is condemned by my choices, but I Choose your Love, Mercy and DBR to set me free from my Free Will Failure that continues to occur."

I remain a forgiven, "willful sinner", but the very Grace of God renews me and allows me to extend the GOSPEL to other "willful sinners".

How can one admit they are a "Sinner", if they don't take personal responsibility for their "Sin"? How can one have Faith that they willfully have in Jesus, if they don't understand that the faith they have is the only action that they can genuinely DO to BE at utter peace with God?

:think:

- LOL?!?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

YET sinners?

5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

As for God's dealings with Adam and Eve after The Fall, and or the basis of His dealings with them despite their enmity in their flesh, from that Fall's point, forward?

The coming Cross of Christ was His basis.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

In His forbearance, as He looked ahead to the Cross, and to that day wherein He would announce the following, He passed over their sin.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

At this time?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I agree with all of the scriptures you have posted and now fully see that they support the OP series premise 100 percent.

The difference...

"Accountability' Who do I "blame" for my sin? The Devil? No! God? No! Adam? No!

MYSELF? Yes! Who saves me in total salvation the moment I acknowledge my need for Him?

JESUS CHRIST the MESSIAH, our Lord, God and Savior... Humble King of kings and Savior of Israel of old and the Gentiles of new. Heck... Salvation "through" Israel to God was available in the old covenant, as well. Funny how the bible is like a perfect poem that rhymes in perfect rhythm with itself.

It has to be DIVINELY inspired!

 

[Nick M]

Nick... if this were true... then the account of Enoch would be false...

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

There is nothing false about Enoch. It says nothing about going to heaven. Or else the Lord Jesus Christ is a liar.

23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Hebrews further enunciates this matter in a way that still supports what you are saying...

Hebrews is not germane to the discussion. You can also stop with Augustine. I don't care about it. You can debate what he thinks with others, it just isn't a concern of mine. What Paul told us is a concern of mine.

 

[dodge]

[MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION] dropped an amazing explanation as to why Augustine tainted the very intent of Rm. 5:12-18, and [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] has a fantastic thread on this matter. I will try to drudge it up.

"Classical Original Sin" doctrine that "Imputes" Adam's sin to mankind and defines us as being born spiritually dead is a post cannon completion error that was caused by Augustine.

It is the very foundation of Predestination, Total Depravity and the attribution of characteristics of "Satan" to God.

Why do you believe as Adam Jesus had no human mother ? I t was because the "nature" that was imputed to mankind through Adam's disobedience was removed in Jesus through the Holy Spirit over shadowing Mary breaking the imputation of Adam's fallen nature.

If man has no fallen nature in Adam why do you believe Adam and Jesus are both given as types when scripture says "in Adam all die and in Christ all live " ? what does each type mean ?

When Jesus said "it is finished He fulfilled the "law" but grace and truth came by Jesus. Part of that law was "eternal condemnation " paid for in and by Jesus. Since death ( spiritual and physical ) was passed on all mankind because of Adam's disobedience,Jesus paid that debt,and death is the result of sin YOU have no explanation for babies dying unless you understand that the sin nature was part of the legacy of Adam.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

There is nothing false about Enoch. It says nothing about going to heaven. Or else the Lord Jesus Christ is a liar.

Hebrews is not germane to the discussion. You can also stop with Augustine. I don't care about it. You can debate what he thinks with others, it just isn't a concern of mine. What Paul told us is a concern of mine.

I agreed with you on the account of Enoch. If you would avoid misquoting me in the future, I would deeply appreciate it.

Nick... if this were true... then the account of Enoch would be false...

23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.​

On the other hand... to defend you dispensationally ...

Hebrews further enunciates this matter in a way that still supports what you are saying...

Heb. 11

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.​

You embrace that Adam's Sin is "imputed" to all mankind... from my perspective. Am I correct?

Why do you avoid quoting the full body of what I say to you and then avoid answering or acknowledging 90 percent of what I write? This is a pattern with you. I'm picking up on it.

Is there any reason my questions aren't good enough to answer? I kind of feel like I'm talking to a wall that only speaks and rarely listens. It's reminiscent of when a Master Chief told me I had two ears and one mouth.

You seem to be a tough sort, so I'm certain this won't be received in a negative way. You seem to be elusive, and if you would kindly notice... my patience for your lack of sincere debate is appealing to my more difficult debate style.

- Evil.Eye.<(I)>

I'll add this again... would you please clarify your answer for me?

Does God impute Guilt upon unborn children?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Why do you believe as Adam Jesus had no human mother ? I t was because the "nature" that was imputed to mankind through Adam's disobedience was removed in Jesus through the Holy Spirit over shadowing Mary breaking the imputation of Adam's fallen nature.

If man has no fallen nature in Adam why do you believe Adam and Jesus are both given as types when scripture says "in Adam all die and in Christ all live " ? what does each type mean ?

When Jesus said "it is finished He fulfilled the "law" but grace and truth came by Jesus. Part of that law was "eternal condemnation " paid for in and by Jesus. Since death ( spiritual and physical ) was passed on all mankind because of Adam's disobedience,Jesus paid that debt,and death is the result of sin YOU have no explanation for babies dying unless you understand that the sin nature was part of the legacy of Adam.

It's funny you say this. Again... you are suggesting that we disobey, because "Adam Disobeyed", and yet... you fully acknowledge that Adam had "God" as his father. He was not Begotten of God... "as God has only ONE begotten SON" ... but you cite Adam as the Prime and then acknowledge that he "sinned". You then impute that "sin nature" to all humanity because of "Adam's Actions".

This seems to remove the very point that WE ALL FALL SHORT of the Glory of God. Just because Paul uses the Analogy that "Judgment" "entered" through one man, and that as "in" Adam, now "in" Christ... Doesn't mean that Paul is saying Adam's "Sin" was imputed to the unborn of all humanity. Adam clearly had "Free Will", the same as we have. It would even go further to note that his "Free Will" was reduced by Satan's deception, and not God's provision. Who encouraged us to go the wrong way? Who continued to be there for us? Who oppressed us and Who freed us?

Who and what is the focus of Heb. 2:14 and 1 Co. 15:55f?

It seems this Sin Imputation doctrine is a nifty way for people to avoid personal accountability and impute wickedness on God..

You have avoided this question for the most part. Could you please answer it directly... I'll use big letters like Paul did, so maybe you won't miss it.

Does God impute Guilt upon unborn children?

 

[dodge]

Evil.Eye.<(I)>;4985581]It's funny you say this. Again... you are suggesting that we disobey, because "Adam Disobeyed", and yet... you fully acknowledge that Adam had "God" as his father. He was not Begotten of God... "as God has only ONE begotten SON" ... but you cite Adam as the Prime and then acknowledge that he "sinned". You then impute that "sin nature" to all humanity because of "Adam's Actions".

I am not suggesting we disobey because Adam disobeyed I am saying men are born with a sin nature as a result of Adam's disobedience and "he" represented everyone just as Jesus represents "all" those that place their faith in Him.

Why did Jesus need to NOT have an earthly mother ? Could it be because the sin nature that was passed down through Adam was voided by Jesus NOT having an earthly mother ? I believe it is clear that God in His wisdom removed that "nature in Jesus because that nature is passed down through the father.

WHY is not Eve who was tempted and disobeyed not referred to as "in Eve all die" could it be because Adam was the federal head of mankind?

This seems to remove the very point that WE ALL FALL SHORT of the Glory of God. Just because Paul uses the Analogy that "Judgment" "entered" through one man, and that as "in" Adam, now "in" Christ...

Not in any means man is a sinner NOT because he sins he sins because he is a sinner by nature.

It seems this Sin Imputation doctrine is a nifty way for people to avoid personal accountability and impute wickedness on God..

Nope, I do not lay sin at God's throne I lay sin where it belongs with every person that sins. The question being ignored is "WHY" does every person sin ? The only exception to being a sinner is Jesus who was NOT born through a woman !

You have avoided this question for the most part. Could you please answer it directly... I'll use big letters like Paul did, so maybe you won't miss it.

Does God impute Guilt upon unborn children?

Not guilt but a nature in them that if they live long enough THEY WILL SIN !

If babies do not have a sin nature why then do babies die? Scripture says plainly death is the result of "sin".


There were babies in Sodom and Gomorrah when God destroyed them both.

There are some things I have to remember this "shall the judge of all the earth no do right".

Gen 18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I am not suggesting we disobey because Adam disobeyed I am saying men are born with a sin nature as a result of Adam's disobedience and "he" represented everyone just as Jesus represents "all" those that place their faith in Him.

Sin Nature? Again... Adam was a picture of one "without" a Sin Nature... lest we now say the Almighty wanted us to sin... and yet... he "sinned". What gives? :idunno:

Why did Jesus need to NOT have an earthly mother ?

Um... did you word this correctly? Jesus did "need" to have an "Earthly" mother to accomplish this... (Heb. 2:14) ... am I misunderstanding you or did you accidentally make a typo?

Could it be because the sin nature that was passed down through Adam was voided by Jesus NOT having an earthly mother ? I believe it is clear that God in His wisdom removed that "nature in Jesus because that nature is passed down through the father.

I'm not in discussion of the remedy yet, as I believe people have totally missed the "Cause" for the "Need" of the remedy. But... lets evaluate this...

Sin Nature passed down through "Adam"... This is interesting, because Adam sinned and according to your premise, God created Adam with a "Sinless Nature", but once Adam "Sinned", we inherited this "Sin Nature". Again... here is the "I'm" a cripple argument. We all screw up... YES! But did God ensure we would "Screw Up"? Or is there only ONE that is actually GOOD and perpetually RIGHTEOUS in the "Flesh"? "Good Teacher"... "Why do you call ME GOOD"? "Only God is GOOD"... (Jesus winking from the very pages of scripture at us)

Removed the Nature of Sin from the FLESH of Jesus? That's interesting... Because scripture says He was "Tempted in every manner that we are", yet HAD NO SIN. Either God magically made that "SIN NATURE" go away and "Rigged the Deck", or God is the only being that is fully RIGHTEOUS in the FLESH and capable of living a SINLESS life. Hmmmmm.... I know God had no SIN. This is obvious. But, perhaps you are undercutting the underlined point of "NOT BEING LIKE GOD". Only God is GOOD. Do you "See" it?

WHY is not Eve who was tempted and disobeyed not referred to as "in Eve all die" could it be because Adam was the federal head of mankind?

Because Adam laid his life down in recognition of his "Love" for EVE. He willingly disobeyed! He couldn't defeat Death, but he could embrace "Death" with Eve.

Do you Note that Jesus is cited as the very meaning of the "Bronze Serpent" in John 3? Who was the real curse? Who's Power did Jesus overturn? I'm just not buying the rhetoric that is undercutting the fact that WE ALL FALL SHORT of the (Heb. 1:3). I don't need an excuse to mess up... I simply do. But by the GRACE of GOD, there Go I.

Not in any means man is a sinner NOT because he sins he sins because he is a sinner by nature.

oic... How's that inability to take personal responsibility going for you?

Nope, I do not lay sin at God's throne I lay sin where it belongs with every person that sins. The question being ignored is "WHY" does every person sin ? The only exception to being a sinner is Jesus who was NOT born through a woman !

There goes Hebrews 4:16 ... and what about ... (1 John 2:1) ... Shoot ... How about (1 John 1:8) or Hebrews 4:15? What gives Dodge? This wording doesn't seem to gel with actual scripture.

Not guilt but a nature in them that if they live long enough THEY WILL SIN !

How is this anything imputed by Adam? Didn't we see this in Adam "As Well" and without the excuse of a nifty "Sin Nature"? Don't ALL FALL SHORT of the Heb. 1:3?

Hasn't this been my OP point? Who committed the "Original Sin"? Who did Christ "Defeat"? Adam? Heb. 2:14.

Are you sure you don't simply Sin because we make mistakes and are blessed with Free Will and a Loving God that desires SINCERITY over HUMAN PERFECTION?

I mean... Yes... Jesus was Fully HUMAN, but HE was also FULLY GOD... (With a limited Foreknowledge... might I add... after all... only the FATHER knew.) But isn't the point that HE ALONE is our propitiation found in this... (2 Tim. 2:13)

If babies do not have a sin nature why then do babies die? Scripture says plainly death is the result of "sin".

Because God numbered the years of mankind. We also were protected from the impact of immortal lives that would have been steeped in and impacted by the WISDOM of Good and Evil... did you catch that...? Knowledge is an "Idea", but Wisdom "carries experience".

So... God rigged every human life's deck for failure, because of Adam? I'm still not buying it. I'm fine with ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY of GOD, so expecting ourselves or others to BE LIKE GOD is utterly "WORTHLESS".

There are some things I have to remember this Can the judge of all the earth do not judge rightly" the answer is NO.

Indeed... When He Judges, it is steeped with perfect "GOOD WISDOM", LOVE, MERCY and HUMILITY, thus He alone is "Worthy" to be Judge.

Why... it makes sense that the 24 elders cast their CROWNS at His feet, if you look at it that way.

 

[Tambora]

It's so good to have such a dear sister in the Lord to search the Scriptures with. :thumb:

DITTO!

Two old ladies searching SCRIPTURE. Not the Canon of Dort, and not Augustine or Peleguis (Neither of which Paul encouraged anyone to read for understanding, but to search the SCRIPTURES daily).

It's refreshing to study alongside one that uses the correct SOURCE.

 

[Nick M]

It's refreshing to study alongside one that uses the correct SOURCE.

Google may also help.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Google may also help.

Every Manuscript, Translation, Lexicon, Cross Reference Concordance and "words to location" search imaginable, all at our fingertips. We are blessed indeed.

(1 John 2:27) above all... of coarse.

 

[Tambora]

Why did Jesus need to NOT have an earthly mother ? Could it be because the sin nature that was passed down through Adam was voided by Jesus NOT having an earthly mother ? I believe it is clear that God in His wisdom removed that "nature in Jesus because that nature is passed down through the father.

I believe you meant to type 'father' instead of 'mother'.

Jesus was born of a vigirn. That virgin had to be a descendant of King David, as Jesus is said to be born from the very loins of David.


Romans 1:3 KJV
(3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Matthew 1:1 KJV
(1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Matthew 9:27 KJV
(27) And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION] !!! I see you in the thread! I'm not going to lie. Even though we have theological friction at times... I missed your input! It's good to "see" you.

 

[Tambora]

You're correct, their relationship was restored,

The nay-sayers claim that Adam's nature was passed to his children.

But if Adam's nakedness was covered by GOD, and GOD promises a Savior as a done deal that cannot be altered, then that's not sounding like enmity/hatred, it's sounding like love.

So we either have to say that GOD had enmity/hatred for all of mankind that he gave His only begotten Son, or we have to say "For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son".


John 3:16-17 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[Shasta]

Amen!!! By overlooking the very words that you have quoted... the "Augustine" crowd have imputed "Sin" upon God and the very characteristics of Satan himself. Note how the Augustine crowd gets upset when characteristics of the Desolator are brought up?

It's like the Augustine theology is hardwired to encourage people to hide the Devil's wiles!

God is GOOD... "All the Time"... and this study is only emphasizing that for me.

:thumb: for the perfect scripture.

It makes sense when we remember that Augustine, before conversion, had belonged to a sect of Persian mysticism known as Manichaeism. They held that manking is so ruined that he cannot make choices but must be programmed to by one of two opposite powers. That was their answer to "the problem of evil." When Augustine converted he first renounced Manichaism even writing a book asserting the freedom of the human will. Later his conflicts with Pelagius drove him back into Christianized version of Manichaeism which was that SIN totally corrupted mankind and rendered his will inoperable. Therefore God had to predetermine who and who would not be saved. Sound familiar?

The theologians of Eastern Rome who spoke Greek and read the scriptures in the original language always maintained the freedom of the will. However, though they never accepted the idea that Adam's guilt was imputed to the human race they believed mankind inherited a liability to sin because they lacked the new life of the Spirit.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

It makes sense when we remember that Augustine, before conversion, had belonged to a sect of Persian mysticism known as Manichaeism. They held that manking is so ruined that he cannot make choices but must be programmed to by one of two opposite powers. That was their answer to "the problem of evil." When Augustine converted he first renounced Manichaism even writing a book asserting the freedom of the human will. Later his conflicts with Pelagius drove him back into Christianized version of Manichaeism which was that SIN totally corrupted mankind and rendered his will inoperable. Therefore God had to predetermine who and who would not be saved. Sound familiar?

The theologians of Eastern Rome who spoke Greek and read the scriptures in the original language always maintained the freedom of the will. However, though they never accepted the idea that Adam's guilt was imputed to the human race they believed mankind inherited a liability to sin because they lacked the new life of the Spirit.

Jawdroppingly Good Shasta! :thumb: This is why people don't realize that the "mother church" and Augustine had an equally negative impact on "theology".

They don't research such matters and find out where their beliefs come from. I do not say that the "mother church" and "Augustine" were wicked... I simply say that all that are not God are prone to making "errors" and thus... we must perpetually search.

Deep Gratitude and whether you bring reinforcement or challenge...

You are officially appreciated.

- EE

 

[Nick M]

Every Manuscript, Translation, Lexicon, Cross Reference Concordance and "words to location" search imaginable, all at our fingertips. We are blessed indeed.

(1 John 2:27) above all... of coarse.

My comment was a joke. Like I said, you are newer here. There was a poster here, well, he is still here, he doesn't post any more. Before the post purging he had 50,000 posts. He was robotic. He did not study the Bible, he studied commentaries. He also said "google may also help".

I could bring you up to speed with some ridiculous things people have said on TOL if you want. Some of it is really funny. Some of it is dangerous because they try to pull people from the faith.