ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

[dodge]

So... you tick a lot of people off... maybe this is why I like agreeing to disagree with you. Thanks for giving counter perspective, but not crying foul.

You are welcome to counter any of us discussing matters here. Anything to drive this discussion forward.

I will ask this one question... Does God impute guilt upon the innocent?

Getting ready to help my 8 year old Grand daughter with her home work but I will answer the last question.

If there was any innocent you would be correct but since all are guilty that argument fails.

As Adam was the federal representative of mankind as Jesus is the federal head of all saved God rightfully passed the judgement onto Adam's progeny. Psalms 58:3 and in Adam all die describes this graphically.

Now less turn the argument around. Is it fair that everyone will die based on what Adam did if Adam was not the federal representative of mankind ?

If everyone is cursed with death based on Adam's disobedience and Adam did not represent mankind why then does God pass death on "ALL" men ?

 

[Danoh]

So... you tick a lot of people off... maybe this is why I like agreeing to disagree with you. Thanks for giving counter perspective, but not crying foul.

You are welcome to counter any of us discussing matters here. Anything to drive this discussion forward.

I will ask this one question... Does God impute guilt upon the innocent?

TOL PTSD, lol

In fairness, the guy was never made to feel "welcome to counter any" of your "us."

Many like him did not start out that way on TOL.

Rather, shortly after he began stating his views on TOL, he was continually maligned and ganged up on by some.

Gradually, he began to treat such in kind.

Though he is off in his allowing himself their same spiritual self-defeat.

Or as the Apostle Paul warned...

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

It is an issue we all have to face. Some automatically able to face it better than others.

Others needing to walk by faith (myself included), when the sin which is in each our respective members comes a callin with its' lie.

The guy ran smack into the elitism of some, only to end up allowing himself to go down to their level with them.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Spirit would never lead a member of the Body to put him or herself and or another, back under the Law's Performance Based Acceptance.

 

[Nick M]

??? Adam's sin does not show my sin, the law reveals my sin. Singular. There are countless every day, but it only takes one. Adam's transgression was dealt with at the cross. Without the cross, you will perish. You continue to see to reject this. Calvinism has nothing to do with it. Calvinism is false, but Adam's one act resulted in condemnation for all, including those that did not sin like Adam.

You don't have to ad a mention to every post. There are 2 notifications every time you do it. One for the quote, one for the mention.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Getting ready to help my 8 year old Grand daughter with her home work but I will answer the last question.

If there was any innocent you would be correct but since all are guilty that argument fails.

As Adam was the federal representative of mankind as Jesus is the federal head of all saved God rightfully passed the judgement onto Adam's progeny. Psalms 58:3 and in Adam all die describes this graphically.

Now less turn the argument around. Is it fair that everyone will die based on what Adam did if Adam was not the federal representative of mankind ?

If everyone is cursed with death based on Adam's disobedience and Adam did not represent mankind why then does God pass death on "ALL" men ?

I fully understand that you will be back later. I also understand your argument. But consider that the One Righteous Judge is being Accused of Imputing Guilt in a PREDESTINED fashion.

Are we Reformed?

Or are we Acts 11:26 Followers that Are self admitted sinners of repentant hearts?

I'm casting aside that old "classical Augustine Doctrine". It makes God out to be a transgressor of His Law and I am an Open Theist, so I don't believe that God condemned me before I was born! I believe He Loved me and "knew" of me, but is sincerely walking with me relationally in my life as it unfolds and only uses His omniscience upon my request. Which, believe you me, I have already asked!

How could a Just God IMPUTE SIN to the UNBORN? This is counter to everything we read in scripture?

That's my perspective. I look forward to your counter.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

??? Adam's sin does not show my sin, the law reveals my sin. Singular. There are countless every day, but it only takes one. Adam's transgression was dealt with at the cross. Without the cross, you will perish. You continue to see to reject this. Calvinism has nothing to do with it. Calvinism is false, but Adam's one act resulted in condemnation for all, including those that did not sin like Adam.

You don't have to ad a mention to every post. There are 2 notifications every time you do it. One for the quote, one for the mention.

Nick...

Judgment came through the Law. The Law was imputed through the Devil's deception.

Jesus Died for all of MY SINS. How about you? Was He thinking of only Adam? Don't you believe that He forgave ALL our Transgressions, and not Just One mans?

If this were the case, then all of the verses that say God canceled our Debt on the cross would be a lie.

We might as well rip out 1 Co. 15:55f and Heb. 2:14.

You don't see it as much more intimate and deep?

and... sorry about the mention.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

TOL PTSD, lol

In fairness, the guy was never made to feel "welcome to counter any" of your "us."

Many like him did not start out that way on TOL.

Rather, shortly after he began stating his views on TOL, he was continually maligned and ganged up on by some.

Gradually, he began to treat such in kind.

Though he is off in his allowing himself their same spiritual self-defeat.

Or as the Apostle Paul warned...

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

It is an issue we all have to face. Some automatically able to face it better than others.

Others needing to walk by faith (myself included), when the sin which is in each our respective members comes a callin with its' lie.

The guy ran smack into the elitism of some, only to end up allowing himself to go down to their level with them.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Spirit would never lead a member of the Body to put him or herself and or another, back under the Law's Performance Based Acceptance.

I'm in complete agreement... I am never under the law. I am Dead and buried. It is only He that lives in me that is Alive, and I counted Alive by only He. I'm no peach myself. That was my meaning in saying he ticks a lot of people off. I was connecting with him.

To specify... When I reached the age of accountability in God's EYES, the very first sin I committed slayed me! It is only by Jesus and His DBR that I am Dead to the very Law that Satan deceived Adam and Eve into bringing into the world.

All my sins are washed away. ALL OF THEM! Paid in Full.

Am I understanding that you think I am headed towards a works trip?

Please tell me if you perceive this, so I can instantly affirm you that I am no leavening and I must specify something to ease your mind. I don't think you realize how deeply I'm tapped into grace and how deeply I extend it. It is priceless GRACE with priceless impact!

Has anyone outright addressed how filthy it is to say that Adam's Guilt is "imputed" upon us all?

It is not his sin that was imputed, but the very PERFECTION of God. We know this as "The Law".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Can anyone that believes in "Augustine Original Sin" explain how God is capable of imputing "GUILT" upon the "UNBORN", when it is a literal transgression of His Own Law? Are there now Dispensational Calvinist's too?

 

[Danoh]

I'm in complete agreement... I am never under the law. I am Dead and buried. It is only He that lives in me that is Alive, and I counted Alive by only He. I'm no peach myself. That was my meaning in saying he ticks a lot of people off. I was connecting with him.

To specify... When I reached the age of accountability in God's EYES, the very first sin I committed slayed me! It is only by Jesus and His DBR that I am Dead to the very Law that Satan deceived Adam and Eve into bringing into the world.

All my sins are washed away. ALL OF THEM! Paid in Full.

Am I understanding that you think I am headed towards a works trip?

Please tell me if you perceive this, so I can instantly affirm you that I am no leavening.

Does not appear to me that he is ticking off the same people you might see you are ticking off :chuckle:

As for the dying thing.

It appears a repetition in each person (over and over).

The result of one starting off dead in Adam, to begin with.

The issue is that of one being born at enmity with God - alienated from Him - in Adam.

And as a result, unable to be righteous in his own strength.

The spiritual death is literal. But it is not that the spirit is dead.

Rather, that that said spirit is "born of the flesh," and as a result is born both alienated from the Life of God (Spiritual Empowerment), and as a result, one is unable to be righteous (patient continuance in well doing) in one's own strength for very long.

And even that little bit is "as filthy rags."

 

[Danoh]

Can anyone that believes in "Augustine Original Sin" explain how God is capable of imputing "GUILT" upon the "UNBORN", when it is a literal transgression of His Own Law? Are there now Dispensational Calvinist's too?

There is a difference between guilt and holding said guilt to one's account, where there is either no law to point it out to said individual, or said individual does not yet know left from right.

But there it is, nevertheless is...indwelling sin.

Thus, the death by sin.

And thus, why Christ died.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Does not appear to me that he is ticking off the same people you might see you are ticking off :chuckle:

As for the dying thing.

It appears a repetition in each person (over and over).

The result of one starting off dead in Adam, to begin with.

The issue is that of one being born at enmity with God - alienated from Him - in Adam.

And as a result, unable to be righteous in his own strength.

The spiritual death is literal. But it is not that the spirit is dead.

Rather, that that said spirit is "born of the flesh," and as a result is born both alienated from the Life of God (Spiritual Empowerment), and as a result, one is unable to be righteous (patient continuance in well doing) in one's own strength for very long.

And even that little bit is "as filthy rags."

I agree with all of what you say... Except that we are naturally at enmity with God... That is learned! Didn't Jesus Die for All? Doesn't that even reinforce that we are now "Born into Grace"?

We all "Become" God's enemies, just as the Serpent deceived Adam and Eve to do. They were deceived into believing that God wasn't enough. Isn't that what your very verbiage is insinuating that I marked... with all taken into account... biblically?

Is a child born "Blind"? Is it right to teach our children that they are enemies of God from the jump? Is it right to teach them that they belong to Satan upon birth?

What happens to aborted babies? What happens to starving kids in Cambodia and Ethiopia that never learn His Name and die of distended bellies from malnutrition?

Something isn't adding up here!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

There is a difference between guilt and holding said guilt to one's account, where there is either no law to point it out to said individual, or said individual does not yet know left from right.

But there it is, nevertheless is...indwelling sin.

Thus, the death by sin.

And thus, why Christ died.

Indeed, but you are now in disagreement with Nick M and classical Augustine doctrine with your idea. You are biblically accurate now, with your verbiage, but know this... it is not Augustine Original Sin.

Editing in... you are noting that "Sin" indwells this world.. which is scriptural... but it enters into our members through the brokenness of lies that are imputed through others and the "father of lies".

You are acknowledging that it is Our sin that spiritually slays us and not "Adams".

No matter the verbiage... there is and forever will be "Only ONE that is GOOD".

 

[glorydaz]

Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


A few things to take note of in these verses.

It's speaking of individuals, and not as a corporate group.
In other words, it's not about the corporate group being cursed because of what some have done (as when Israel is corporately punished even though every individual did not participate in the offense).

The soul that sinneth shall die. NOT, you die if someone else sinned.
So what sort of "death" is it speaking of?
A physical death, or a spiritual death, or some other type of death?


We also see that any individual sins committed by the parents are not imputed to the children, and vise versa.
You are guilty of sins you committed, and not the sins of others.


This part is very interesting.
The wicked WILL NOT DIE if they turn from wickedness.
What "death" is that speaking of?
Can't be physical death because they will die physically whether they turn from their sins or not.
Seems kinda silly to say one will not die spiritually when they turn from their sins unless they were already alive spiritually.

So what is this "death" speaking of?


How many types of "death" are eluded to in scripture?
And how many types of "death" in scripture are permanent, and how many types are temporary?

Excellent points all. I especially love Ezek. 18. God is clearly stating a principle of His justice....absolute righteousness and fairness. The Jews were worried their disobedience as a nation would follow them in the judgment in spite of their actions, and He assures them He would never saddle one man with another's guilt. As you said, He makes it personal.

 

[Danoh]

Indeed, but you are now in disagreement with Nick M and classical Augustine doctrine with your idea. You are biblically accurate now, with your verbiage, but know this... it is not Augustine Original Sin.

Editing in... you are noting that "Sin" indwells this world.. which is scriptural... but it enters into our members through the brokenness of lies that are imputed through others and the "father of lies".

You are acknowledging that it is Our sin that spiritually slays us and not "Adams".

No matter the verbiage... there is and forever will be "Only ONE that is GOOD".

Nick the Beligerent should be happy :chuckle:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Nick the Beligerent should be happy :chuckle:

Oh my...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a difference between guilt and holding said guilt to one's account, where there is either no law to point it out to said individual, or said individual does not yet know left from right.

In God's eyes a man is "guilty" when he sins:

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Ro.3:19).​

The word "guilt" is defined as "fact or state of having committed an offense or crime; grave culpability, as for some conscious violation of moral or penal law" (The American College Dictionary).

The concept of "culpability" is essential in determining a person's guilt. The word "culpable" means "deserving blame or censure; blameworthy" (Ibid.). A person is not "guilty" unless he is "culpable" or "deserving blame" of a violation of a moral law. The word "blame" means "to lay the responsibility of (a fault, error, etc.) on a person" (Ibid.).

Therefore, it is impossible that anyone can be held guilty of another person's sin. That truth is illustrated by what we read here:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

Despite these clear facts the Calvinists teach that the sons of Adam and all of Adam's descendants share his guilt:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

In God's eyes a man is "guilty" when he sins:

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Ro.3:19).​

The word "guilt" is defined as "fact or state of having committed an offense or crime; grave culpability, as for some conscious violation of moral or penal law" (The American College Dictionary).

The concept of "culpability" is essential in determining a person's guilt. The word "culpable" means "deserving blame or censure; blameworthy" (Ibid.). A person is not "guilty" unless he is "culpable" or "deserving blame" of a violation of a moral law. The word "blame" means "to lay the responsibility of (a fault, error, etc.) on a person" (Ibid.).

That truth is illustrated by what we read here:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

Despite these clear facts the Calvinists teach that the sons of Adam and all of Adam's descendants share his guilt:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

Thank you Jerry! I have also underwritten the OP to express that to even insinuate that God "Imputes" sin upon the "Unborn" is to declare He transgresses His very "Law".

The case against Augustine is growing by the second!

 

[Danoh]

Excellent points all. I especially love Ezek. 18. God is clearly stating a principle of His justice....absolute righteousness and fairness. The Jews were worried their disobedience as a nation would follow them in the judgment in spite of their actions, and He assures them He would never saddle one man with another's guilt. As you said, He makes it personal.

The Ezekiel 18 death was a stoning.

Case in point; they were not in the habit of stoning someone's offspring, for their parent's adultry.

 

[Nick M]

Judgment came through the Law.

No. The law reveals sin.

The Law was imputed through the Devil's deception.

What?

Jesus Died for all of MY SINS. How about you?

You are new here, this is why you think you have to ask. And I have no idea what your point is. Romans 5:18 is against Calvinism. Because Paul says the free gift came to all. Romans 5 also shows that God lays the death of man at Adam's feet. I don't know why you have a problem with it. I am not a Hebrew. I only read it to learn about the Circumcision. It is not my concern. I am not of the house of Israel or Judah and I will not be moving in.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The Ezekiel 18 death was a stoning.

Case in point; they were not in the habit of stoning someone's offspring, for their parent's adultry.

Again... does God now transgress His own Law? Isn't this our Divine Kings answer that fully supports the premise of what is being said?

John 8:7

7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

Since "Carnal" death is nothing compared to "Spiritual" Death... shall we now say that Jesus "Spiritually Stones" unborn Babies?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No. The law reveals sin.




What?



You are new here, this is why you think you have to ask. And I have no idea what your point is. Romans 5:18 is against Calvinism. Because Paul says the free gift came to all. Romans 5 also shows that God lays the death of man at Adam's feet. I don't know why you have a problem with it. I am not a Hebrew. I only read it to learn about the Circumcision. It is not my concern. I am not of the house of Israel or Judah and I will not be moving in.

I've been here for long enough Nick. Your knowledge of me isn't a standard of not being "new".

You affirm "Augustine Original Sin" and defend it... correct?

And Nick... Do you read scripture that people post to you? Do you check what I am actually saying?

Again... I have reposted Heb. 2:14 and 1 Cor. 15:55f like a hundred times now... so your "correction" is actually "non"-correction? What is your point?