Christians are "ALREADY" Perfect and Complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

[Right Divider]

Right Divider,

I DO NOT understand what you are saying. The phrase "fulfilling the law" may not be used in the specific context but the concept is sound.

Does not Romans 7 teach us that it is the law that kills us?

Romans 7: I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.​

It is precisely because it is the law that condemns us that it was necessary that Jesus be innocent of any violation of the law. It is His innocence, His legal innocence, that satisfies the demands of (i.e. fulfills) the law to our benefit. It is the law's demand for blood that makes Christ's death necessary and, if we have been crucified with Christ then it is that death, which the law inflicted on Christ, which makes it so that the law has no hold on us because once the law has killed you, it has no more to say against you because the law no longer applies to those it has executed.

Further, does not Galatians 5 teach us the we fulfill the law by loving our neighbor?...

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”​

​

Indeed, isn't the whole point of Galatians 5 that we fulfill the law but not because we submit to the law but because we love on another and are led by the Spirit and produce the fruit thereof, against which there is no law?



I'm curious about something. Do believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for those saved under the dispensation of the law and saved through the kingdom gospel? In other words, is your objection concerning this "fulfilling the law" idea only applicable to those of us under the dispensation of grace?

I believe that the single verse that most of Churchianity uses to say that "Jesus fulfilled the law for us" is being misunderstood.
The "fulfilling" is referring to "the law AND the prophets". It is not talking about "fulfilling the law", but about fulfilling the prophecies contained in "Moses (i.e., the law) and the prophets. The term "the law and the prophets" is a figure of speech referring to those books and not the law itself.

Indeed Jesus kept the law and was the only perfect sacrifice for sin.

 

[Robert Pate]

I believe that the single verse that most of Churchianity uses to say that "Jesus fulfilled the law for us" is being misunderstood.
The "fulfilling" is referring to "the law AND the prophets". It is not talking about "fulfilling the law", but about fulfilling the prophecies contained in "Moses (i.e., the law) and the prophets. The term "the law and the prophets" is a figure of speech referring to those books and not the law itself.

Indeed Jesus kept the law and was the only perfect sacrifice for sin.

You admit that Jesus kept the law, which is the same as fulfilling the law, but you can't tell us who Jesus kept or fulfilled the law for. It could not be for himself because he was without sin. God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law. 2. A perfect atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus, we now stand before God and his holy law as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

 

[Right Divider]

You admit that Jesus kept the law,

Never said otherwise.

which is the same as fulfilling the law,

No, it's not.

but you can't tell us who Jesus kept or fulfilled the law for.

Since Jesus did not "fulfill the law"... it's irrelevant.

It could not be for himself because he was without sin. God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man. 1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law. 2. A perfect atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus, we now stand before God and his holy law as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Jesus fulfilled "the law AND the prophets", which is a figure of speech that does NOT mean "the law".

 

[Robert Pate]

Never said otherwise.

No, it's not.

Since Jesus did not "fulfill the law"... it's irrelevant.

Jesus fulfilled "the law AND the prophets", which is a figure of speech that does NOT mean "the law".

Okay, who did Jesus keep the law for?

 

[Right Divider]

Okay, who did Jesus keep the law for?

God

 

[Robert Pate]

God

So Jesus was a sinner and needed to rehabilitated himself in his relationship with God by keeping the law?

Now I am sorry that I asked.

 

[Right Divider]

So Jesus was a sinner

You are like your father, the devil. You LIE about what others say.

and needed to rehabilitated himself in his relationship with God by keeping the law?

Nope (another FALSE ACCUSATION by Mr Christian).

But Jesus was UNDER THE LAW, since He was a Jew.

Gal 4:4-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (4:5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Now I am sorry that I asked.

What you should be sorry for is your FALSE ACCUSATIONS and your bizarre and unbiblical ideas (no matter what scripture you quote to try to support your lame ideas).

 

[Robert Pate]

You are like your father, the devil. You LIE about what others say.

Nope (another FALSE ACCUSATION by Mr Christian).

But Jesus was UNDER THE LAW, since He was a Jew.


What you should be sorry for is your FALSE ACCUSATIONS and your bizarre and unbiblical ideas (no matter what scripture you quote to try to support your lame ideas).

You are the one that said Jesus kept the law for God, which makes him a sinful Pharisee.

Jesus was born of God and was without sin. He didn't have to keep the law to be righteous, he came into the world as righteous. He kept the law for us because we are not capable of keeping the law for ourselves. In our name and on our behalf he fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law, Matthew 5:18.

Just because Jesus was born under the law does not make him a sinner.

There are no false accusations. I have not accused you or anyone of anything. What I have done is corrected your false interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

You are the one that said Jesus kept the law for God, which makes him a sinful Pharisee.

Nonsense per your usual.

Jesus was born of God and was without sin.

Again... I never said otherwise. You must falsely accuse me to make yourself feel better.

He didn't have to keep the law to be righteous, he came into the world as righteous.

No kidding. I have never said otherwise, but you still feel the need to falsely accuse me. You are a little child that needs adult supervision.

He kept the law for us because we are not capable of keeping the law for ourselves. In our name and on our behalf he fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law, Matthew 5:18.

You can continue with your FALSE interpretation of that scripture.
False interpretaion suits you well.

Just because Jesus was born under the law does not make him a sinner.

I never said any such thing. For the millionth time, you are a false accuser... like your daddy the devil.

There are no false accusations.

Another lie.

I have not accused you or anyone of anything.

You are blind to your own lies.

What I have done is corrected your false interpretation of the Bible.

Nope... it's the other way around.

 

[marke]

What Catholics, Pentecostals, Nazarenes and other holiness religions are trying to attain to in their flesh is ALREADY ours in Jesus Christ.

God ALREADY sees his people as perfect and complete in Christ. In Jesus Christ we have ALREADY been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. If you don't believe this, then you don't believe the Gospel.

This is why Christians are not under the law or subject to it. In our name and on our behalf, Jesus has ALREADY fulfilled the law for us. This is why Paul wrote, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Where there is no law there is no judgment. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation, Romans 4:15. This is why Paul said, "For as many as are of the works of the law (religion) are under the curse" Galatians 3:10. This is also why Jesus abolished the law, nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

CHRISTIANS ARE WAITING FOR GLORIFICATION.

This is the only thing that we don't have. We only have the "first fruits" of the Spirit. "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" Romans 8:23. We will be glorified when Jesus appears or when we are resurrected. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you appear with him in glory" Colossians 3:4.

Knowing and believing these things how should we now live. Paul wrote, "The life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved and gave himself for me" Galatians 3:20. Living by faith means to live like a Christian.

Christians are taught by God to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth so as to find greater victory over besetting sins and to be better equipped to better love and serve God.

What Catholics, Pentecostals, Nazarenes and other holiness religions are trying to attain to in their flesh is ALREADY ours in Jesus Christ.

God ALREADY sees his people as perfect and complete in Christ. In Jesus Christ we have ALREADY been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. If you don't believe this, then you don't believe the Gospel.

This is why Christians are not under the law or subject to it. In our name and on our behalf, Jesus has ALREADY fulfilled the law for us. This is why Paul wrote, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. Where there is no law there is no judgment. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation, Romans 4:15. This is why Paul said, "For as many as are of the works of the law (religion) are under the curse" Galatians 3:10. This is also why Jesus abolished the law, nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

CHRISTIANS ARE WAITING FOR GLORIFICATION.

This is the only thing that we don't have. We only have the "first fruits" of the Spirit. "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" Romans 8:23. We will be glorified when Jesus appears or when we are resurrected. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you appear with him in glory" Colossians 3:4.

Knowing and believing these things how should we now live. Paul wrote, "The life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved and gave himself for me" Galatians 3:20. Living by faith means to live like a Christian.

We are perfect in Christ as soon as we are born, but that does not mean we are sinlessly perfect or have perfect knowledge and understanding. For greater victory over sin and greater understanding of God's word we need to grow up after we are born again.

1 Peter 2
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

 

[Robert Pate]

Christians are taught by God to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth so as to find greater victory over besetting sins and to be better equipped to better love and serve God.

We are perfect in Christ as soon as we are born, but that does not mean we are sinlessly perfect or have perfect knowledge and understanding. For greater victory over sin and greater understanding of God's word we need to grow up after we are born again.

1 Peter 2
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

If we were born "In Christ" there would be no need to be born again, 1 Peter 1:23. That theology is not correct and is not according to the Bible. Even after we accept Christ as our savior we still have a sin nature and are sinners, Paul referred to himself as, "The chief of sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul also referred to us as corruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:53. We are born sinners, King David said, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

 

[Robert Pate]

Nonsense per your usual.

Again... I never said otherwise. You must falsely accuse me to make yourself feel better.

No kidding. I have never said otherwise, but you still feel the need to falsely accuse me. You are a little child that needs adult supervision.

You can continue with your FALSE interpretation of that scripture.
False interpretaion suits you well.

I never said any such thing. For the millionth time, you are a false accuser... like your daddy the devil.

Another lie.

You are blind to your own lies.

Nope... it's the other way around.

Perhaps you should put me on ignore.

 

[Clete]

I believe that the single verse that most of Churchianity uses to say that "Jesus fulfilled the law for us" is being misunderstood.
The "fulfilling" is referring to "the law AND the prophets". It is not talking about "fulfilling the law", but about fulfilling the prophecies contained in "Moses (i.e., the law) and the prophets. The term "the law and the prophets" is a figure of speech referring to those books and not the law itself.

Indeed Jesus kept the law and was the only perfect sacrifice for sin.

Does not the law and the prophets also include the law itself? It seems to me that Jesus was fulfilling the law in both ways. He did things throughout His life that showed that the Old Testament talked about Him throughout and in that manner "fulfilled the law and the prophets" but that He also kept the Law of Moses and that He did that on our behalf so that not just His death but also His righteousness could be credited to our account.

Do you think that is incorrect?

 

[Right Divider]

Does not the law and the prophets also include the law itself?

So?

It seems to me that Jesus was fulfilling the law in both ways.

OK

He did things throughout His life that showed that the Old Testament talked about Him throughout and in that manner "fulfilled the law and the prophets" but that He also kept the Law of Moses and that He did that on our behalf so that not just His death but also His righteousness could be credited to our account.

It depends on what is meant by "on our behalf".

Do you think that is incorrect?

Yes and no.
Jesus was not righteous because He kept the law; Jesus kept the law because He was righteous.

 

[Clete]

It depends on what is meant by "on our behalf".

Jesus' entire existence as a man was on our behalf.
No one has any problem with the notion that Jesus died on our behalf but Jesus' death only works because Jesus lived a sinless life.

Yes and no.
Jesus was not righteous because He kept the law; Jesus kept the law because He was righteous.

I'd say that both are true because Jesus was capable of breaking the law and / or sinning in other ways. His confrontation with Satan in the wilderness was real and Jesus chose to humble Himself and be obedient even unto death. I say "chose" because humility and obedience are both meaningless if they are not done voluntarily. And so, yes, Jesus was righteous without the law but that would have changed had He not submitted to the law that He found Himself born under as a man. In short, had Jesus not followed the law, we wouldn't be here putting capital letters at the beginning of even His personal pronouns.

Remember that the law is an outgrowth from, or you might even say it is the fruit of, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and that it was the problem created by Adam at that tree that Jesus came as a man to fix and so the law is not a side issue or a mere backdrop to Jesus' life.

 

[marke]

If we were born "In Christ" there would be no need to be born again, 1 Peter 1:23. That theology is not correct and is not according to the Bible. Even after we accept Christ as our savior we still have a sin nature and are sinners, Paul referred to himself as, "The chief of sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul also referred to us as corruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:53. We are born sinners, King David said, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

I meant we are perfect in Christ as soon as we are born again, but not in the sense that we no longer sin.

 

[Robert Pate]

I meant we are perfect in Christ as soon as we are born again, but not in the sense that we no longer sin.

As long as we are still here on this sinful planet in our unredeemed Adamic bodies we will sin, Romans 8:23. However, God does not see us as sinners, he sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

 

[Clete]

Jesus was not righteous because He kept the law; Jesus kept the law because He was righteous.

Aren't both things true?

It is true that Christ's righteousness was not a result of His obedience to the law but, being found as a man under the law, His obedience to the law was required and had He failed to submit Himself to the law and obey its commandments, He would have disqualified Himself from being the Lamb of God and we would all still be in our sin and without hope. Thus our salvation comes, in no small measure, by virtue of Christ's obedience to the Law of Moses.

Indeed, that is the reason why there was a people of the law (Israel) and why the Messiah had to come through that nation. The law is the knowledge of sin (i.e. good and evil) (Romans 3) which ties back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the rebellion that took place there (Romans 5). It all starts with two trees. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil kicks the story off and at the end we get to partake of the other tree, The Tree of Life. It's all one big continuous story that's all woven together and the law is an indispensable aspect of that story.

If you haven't already done so, you should read Bob Enyart's "The Plot". It's flatly the best book on biblical theology that's been written in a hundred years (probably longer). I tell people all the time that if they haven't read that book, they don't understand the bible. He spends a whole chapter talking about the relationship between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the law, explaining how the latter is the result of (i.e. the fruit of) the former, which gives a whole new perspective to why Paul was so adamant that we not put ourselves under the law. With the first Adam, the rule was, "Do not partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." now, with the Last Adam, via Paul's gospel, the rule is the same.

The point of all that being, you cannot have the gospel without the law. The law is central to the whole entire concept of Christianity itself.

Clete

 

[ttruscott]

God ALREADY sees his people as perfect and complete in Christ. In Jesus Christ we have ALREADY been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. If you don't believe this, then you don't believe the Gospel.

Perfect means complete and Christians are NOT by any means perfectly sanctified in righteousness or Heb 12:5-11 is a lie. I like your theology but you are too loose with the words. If we are perfect in HIS sight HE has no need to train us in righteousness by harsh discipline. Until we are holy and trained perfectly in righteousness, we are not perfectly sanctified even though we are acceptable to HIM.

 

[Right Divider]

Perfect means complete and Christians are NOT by any means perfectly sanctified in righteousness or Heb 12:5-11 is a lie.

This is exactly the kind of confusion that comes from not rightly dividing the Word of truth.
That passage in HEBREWS is about the nation of Israel and NOT the body of Christ.

I like your theology but you are too loose with the words. If we are perfect in HIS sight HE has no need to train us in righteousness by harsh discipline. Until we are holy and trained perfectly in righteousness, we are not perfectly sanctified even though we are acceptable to HIM.

Christ IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. If you think that you will, some day, be "trained perfectly in righteousness"... you are deceived.

P.S. We are holy/sanctified, per being IN CHRIST.

Col 3:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (3:3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.