Can Anyone Explain 'Why gay marriage?'

[Arthur Brain]

For universalism to be true (and I'm surprised to realize AB is apparently a universalist), God must force salvation upon people who do not want Him and make them want Him.

Is there a Calvinist here who is not comfortable with saying God forces salvation upon certain elect unbelievers, just as universalism says He'll eventually force it upon all unbelievers?

I suppose you think every atheist is a 'God hater' right? According to your own belief then everyone is going to be forced to acknowledge God, even if it's after death, correct? 'Every knee shall bow'? Yet you seem to think its okay for eternal suffering to be forced on people which I doubt anyone is willingly going to walk into?

How about you think on how absurd your position is on this?

 

[Nang]

For universalism to be true (and I'm surprised to realize AB is apparently a universalist), God must force salvation upon people who do not want Him and make them want Him.

Is there a Calvinist here who is not comfortable with saying God forces salvation upon certain elect unbelievers, just as universalism says He'll eventually force it upon all unbelievers?

Are you angry with God because he forced life upon you? Are you sorry you were born without your permission or choosing?

 

[Arthur Brain]

How many "free-willers" like Musty are praying for your nieces, asking God that they will decide on their own, to believe Jesus Christ and repent?

What if that never happens and those prayers are not answered?

Do you have the same problem with that?

As you may have noticed, I'm no fan of Musty's stance on this either. You didn't answer my question though. If any loved one of mine is 'reprobate' and bound for eternal suffering then you'd give glory to God over that wouldn't you?

 

[Arthur Brain]

The Bible makes it clear that some are going to be condemned to hell for their unbelief. So it means what it says.

You are the one that it trying to change the obvious meaning.

The obvious is there. If God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers then it says what it says. Unless you want to redefine the definition of 'especially' into 'only' - which is what you're twisting it into. I'm not changing anything about the verse.

 

[Nang]

As you may have noticed, I'm no fan of Musty's stance on this either. You didn't answer my question though. If any loved one of mine is 'reprobate' and bound for eternal suffering then you'd give glory to God over that wouldn't you?

I glory in God's justice and wisdom as much as I glory in His love and grace.

I submit to His sovereignty in all things; trusting that all He does is right and good.

We are His creation. We are the works of His hands. We are the ones who have gone astray.

God has every moral right to do with us as He wills.

It is a wonder to me, that He has shown grace to any of us . . .

None of us deserve His love and rescue.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I glory in God's justice and wisdom as much as I glory in His love and grace.

I submit to His sovereignty in all things; trusting that all He does is right and good.

We are His creation. We are the works of His hands. We are the ones who have gone astray.

God has every moral right to do with us as He wills.

It is a wonder to me, that He has shown grace to any of us . . .

None of us deserve His love and rescue.

So that's a roundabout way of saying yes then, isn't it? If a loved one of mine - or anyone else's - is bound for eternal suffering by sovereign decree then you'd give glory to God over it.

lain:

 

[Right Divider]

The obvious is there. If God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers then it says what it says. Unless you want to redefine the definition of 'especially' into 'only' - which is what you're twisting it into. I'm not changing anything about the verse.

Your double-mind must make it hard to get through the day.

 

[Arthur Brain]

If you underestimate how much God hates sin, then that would indeed seem very unjust to you. But if one takes the awfulness of sin into account, it does make sense. Sin cannot exist in His presence, and it won't.

Hmm, so this has gone from how it would be unjust of God to 'force' himself on people to how it's justifiable for God to force people into suffering instead. Might have been better off starting off with that one, insidious as it is to justify the suffering of other people for simply not having the same belief as yourself. it might make 'sense' to you for other fallible people to rot for eternity but then you don't really smack of the most compassionate sort of person as it is.

Then you'd be outraged that He forces Himself on everyone.

:AMR:

If anyone -- "Christian," religious or not -- has heard the truth and understands it, but still chooses to reject it, yes they will be dealt with as enemies because that's what the Bible calls them..."lovers of self more than lovers of God."

But I'm done speaking to you on this because you don't actually believe any of what you're discussing.

Ah, that's more like the arrogance I'd expect from you Musterion.

:thumb:

 

[Nang]

So that's a roundabout way of saying yes then, isn't it?

Yes.

Only unbelief refuses to give God His glory in all things.

If a loved one of mine - or anyone else's - is bound for eternal suffering by sovereign decree then you'd give glory to God over it.

lain:

The above is not accurate. Men are not "bound" to destruction by decree alone.

All men are created morally accountable to believe in and obey God, and when they do not, they receive only what unbelief deserves . . condemnation and death.

The truth that God ordains all things, does not make creatures less accountable to their Creator.

Destruction in hell is deserved by all.

Glory in heaven and everlasting life is deserved by none.

The discussion should not be about who is saved, but why any at all are saved, by God's grace alone.

And what did it cost Him?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Your double-mind must make it hard to get through the day.

What, for reading a verse simply for what it says? I'm not the one redefining words dude.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes.

Only unbelief refuses to give God His glory in all things.



The above is not accurate. Men are not "bound" to destruction by decree alone.

All men are created morally accountable to believe in and obey God, and when they do not, they receive only what unbelief deserves . . condemnation and death.

The truth that God ordains all things, does not make creatures less accountable to their Creator.

Destruction in hell is deserved by all.

Glory in heaven and everlasting life is deserved by none.

The discussion should not be about who is saved, but why any at all are saved, by God's grace alone.

And what did it cost Him?

Right, so you would give glory to God over the eternal suffering of anyone close to me, thanks for the admission.

Now, if all men are morally accountable to believe and yet denied that which could enable them to unless elect then what a joke, frankly.

Just a very unfunny one.

 

[musterion]

Only unbelief refuses to give God His glory in all things.

Then that's His fault. The Elect will be made to believe sooner or later, and reprobates can never believe, BY HIS SOVEREIGN DECREE.

You are a blasphemer.

 

[Right Divider]

What, for reading a verse simply for what it says? I'm not the one redefining words dude.

I'm not redefining words either, dude.

The Bible says that Christ is the savior of all men, and it ALSO says that some are going to hell.

Why is this so hard for you do understand?

 

[Arthur Brain]

My system -- the Biblical system -- takes sin and faith into account. God wants and deserves to be believed by us, but He forces no one to believe Him. Not once in the Bible can you find Him doing that.

So, Saul wasn't coerced at all on the road to Damascus then?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I'm not redefining words either, dude.

The Bible says that Christ is the savior of all men, and it ALSO says that some are going to hell.

Why is this so hard for you do understand?

Sure you are, and everyone goes to the grave dude.

 

[Right Divider]

Sure you are, and everyone goes to the grave dude.

No, I am not.

And the second part of your sentence is incorrect as well.

So much for the "brain".

 

[Nang]

Right, so you would give glory to God over the eternal suffering of anyone close to me, thanks for the admission.

I am saying if you or anyone close to you end up in hell, it is because you deserve nothing better. It will be the fault of your sins and unbelief. That does not mean I do not care for you, only that I believe in the justice of God and care that His name be glorified more.

Now, if all men are morally accountable to believe and yet denied that which could enable them to unless elect then what a joke, frankly.

Try as you might, you cannot blame your sins and unbelief upon God.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, I am not.

And the second part of your sentence is incorrect as well.

So much for the "brain".

Yes, you are. In your position you might as well say that a lifeguard was the saviour of everyone in trouble, especially of those that didn't drown. Makes no sense. If God is the saviour of all men, then He either is or isn't. If He's only the saviour of those that believe then there's no need for the word 'especially' and yet it's there.

What's incorrect about the latter exactly?

 

[glassjester]

Well, to be fair, that would align more with universal salvation than either your position or Nang's. If God is the saviour of all men then that blows Calvinism out of the water and it also does away with the notion that God is only the saviour of those who believe.

God is the savior for all, yes. But people may reject Him.

If a ship was sinking - there may very well be lifeboats for all, but it would still be possible for people to foolishly choose not to get on one.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I am saying if you or anyone close to you end up in hell, it is because you deserve nothing better. It will be the fault of your sins and unbelief. That does not mean I do not care for you, only that I believe in the justice of God and care that His name be glorified more.

How touching.

Try as you might, you cannot blame your sins and unbelief upon God.

Well, I wasn't trying that anyway but thanks...