Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
It's a myth that a sheep turns into a goat. The sheep even before repentance struggle terribly with their life of sin. The goats may also struggle but they never come to true repentance. God knows the end from the beginning so we are either a sheep or a goat in his eyes.
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I am not saying God's people do not struggle sometimes. I am saying that a person who has not heard and responded to the "voice" of the Shepherd, who has not had a personal encounter, who has not "followed after Him." is not a real sheep. They might become one sometime in the future but a person's future is not something I know about. In fact, we are not told to speculate on how they might change. The present is where people reveal their true natures.

Speaking of people who are only wearing sheep suits Jesus said

16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So every good tree bears good fruits, but the rotten tree bears bad fruits. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits, nor a bad tree to bear good fruits. 19 Every tree not bearing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire. 20 Then surely by their fruits you will recognize them (Matthew 7:16-20).

Any radical change of heart will be reflected in a change in ones pattern of life. You cannot call someone a "good tree" or a "sheep" while they exhibit the characteristic of another species.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
serpentdove said:
No one seeks God (Ro 3:11). He enables men to have: eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand (Is 6:10). The Calvinist says: that offer was just for me because I'm God's darling elite. :freak: The historical, biblical Christian :poly: understands that this offer has gone out to the whole world (Jn 3:16).
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Saving grace is not an offer that can be resisted. It is a life-changing miracle bestowed by God, upon elect souls chosen for redemption, since before the world began. Read Ephesians 1:-12; I John 2:19-27
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I wanted to verify that you were saying all these sheep existed in the future and He was not talking solely about people who existed in His day. However, since hearing his voice is one mark of being a sheep a person cannot be sheep before that event happens - which has been my point all along.
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Lying, Jesus possessed Sheep before they hear and believe Jn 10:16 !

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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
Total Depravity as a synonym for "total inability" was not a belief of the Early Church until the fifth century when Augustine of Hippo introduced the idea into Western Christianity from Manichaeism, a cult he had belonged to before his conversion. In the three hundred years before him the Early Church fathers never interpreted the teachings of the Bible to mean that man could make no choice. Instead the unanimously and directly affirmed "free will" which did not mean man's will was unrestrained and uninfluenced only that he could make a choice. The Reformer's doctrines came directly from Augustine. The denial of inability is not a denial that man is depraved. It is not an assertion that without the aid of the Spirit men will come to God. It is certainly not the belief that man by his own power can be good enough to be acceptable to God. All of these are straw men.



The Spirit is in the world, working to convince men that they are sinners, to draw men to Christ and to
convince them that Jesus is who He said He was and did what the Bible said He did. Because of this we can listen and yield to the Spirit but we can also resist Him.



But no one in my camp says we do that independently. This is another misconception. In fact, even after we are saved, we cannot behave like Christ or do His will without depending on the Spirit.



The idea is that the price He paid on the cross is sufficient for anyone and everyone but that people must believe before it is efficacious for them. This would have to be the case if one is to keep the universal call of the gospel intact. Otherwise we end up reading all sorts of presuppositions into the text that no one saw for many centuries.

God did not measure out the exact weight of the sins of the "elect" balance that against an exact amount of suffering Christ endured balancing it so parsimoniously that no redemption would be available to anyone else. How could Christ's suffering be so measured and meted out? It is impossible. He paid an infinite price and because of that, anyone who can be brought to believe in Him can avail themselves of the benefits. This makes God both just and merciful. I do not see this as about "everyone in general but no one in particular." Christ's death could save anyone - unless they have already been judged. In that case they have already received either punishment or reward. Your remarks on people in the hereafter thus do not make any sense to me.
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But man has to yield to the Spirit's influence. That is everywhere in scripture. Anyone, believers as well as unbelievers can resist, quench and grieve the Holy Spirit and by that means block God's good intentions towards us. If it ALL depended solely on the Spirit then He could not be resisted. Every time He called, pleaded, through the prophets and apostles, Israel would have turned from their sins. You speak as if man having a will were somehow a challenge to God's "sovereignty" but when God made man He made a being in His own image who had the power to think and make choices. Adam immediately demonstrated this by making the wrong choice.[/QUOTE]
A bunch of invalid and false comments!

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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I am not saying God's people do not struggle sometimes. I am saying that a person who has not heard and responded to the "voice" of the Shepherd, who has not had a personal encounter, who has not "followed after Him." is not a real sheep. They might become one sometime in the future but a person's future is not something I know about. In fact, we are not told to speculate on how they might change. The present is where people reveal their true natures.

Speaking of people who are only wearing sheep suits Jesus said

16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So every good tree bears good fruits, but the rotten tree bears bad fruits. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits, nor a bad tree to bear good fruits. 19 Every tree not bearing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire. 20 Then surely by their fruits you will recognize them (Matthew 7:16-20).

Any radical change of heart will be reflected in a change in ones pattern of life. You cannot call someone a "good tree" or a "sheep" while they exhibit the characteristic of another species.
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False statements not found in scripture.

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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
You serve a different god than me.

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You serve John Calvin's Nazi God.

Here is question that you will probably not answer.

If God has already decided who is lost and who is saved, then why should there be a judgment?

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ". If you are one of the special chosen ones what are you doing at the judgment?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You serve John Calvin's Nazi God.

Here is question that you will probably not answer.

If God has already decided who is lost and who is saved, then why should there be a judgment?

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ". If you are one of the special chosen ones what are you doing at the judgment?
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You serve the devils freewill god, I will be like the most high.

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