Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
Jesus died for the whole world with everyone in it. He then chooses an elect body (Jews and Gentiles) to believe in and receive it. The atonement is universal in scope while an election based on grace is a subset of the world.
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You serve a different jesus than me, the Jesus I serve died only for the world of God's Elect or Sheep.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Okay, you see definition# 8? That speaks of a particular group or collection of individuals as being a World.

So that applies to the Sheep Christ loves and layed down His life for, all the collection and gathering of Christ Sheep from among the jews and the gentiles is the world God so loved and Christ died for Jn 10:15-16 !

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As usual you dispense opinions without devoting any time at all to understanding what has been posted. So you think an aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort means "the world of the elect?" Let us look at the examples provided by the Lexicon under the definition you have selected and see how your theory plays out:

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a (an elect) world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

Here the fire of iniquity produced by the human tongue is compared to the world of God's elect.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world of the elect or the things in the world of the elect. If anyone loves the world of the elect, the love of the Father is not in him.

If anyone loves God's elect God's love is not in them. Thus we are told NOT to love God's elect.

John 1:10 He was in the world of the elect, and the world of the electwas made through Him, and the world of the elect did not know Him.

Here we see that the the elect did not know Jesus.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
As usual you dispense opinions without devoting any time at all to understanding what has been posted. So you think an aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort means "the world of the elect?" Let us look at the examples provided by the Lexicon under the definition you have selected and see how your theory plays out:

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a (an elect) world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

Here the fire of iniquity produced by the human tongue is compared to the world of God's elect.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world of the elect or the things in the world of the elect. If anyone loves the world of the elect, the love of the Father is not in him.

If anyone loves God's elect God's love is not in them. Thus we are told NOT to love God's elect.

John 1:10 He was in the world of the elect, and the world of the electwas made through Him, and the world of the elect did not know Him.

Here we see that the the elect did not know Jesus.
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Do you deny that world means:

. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
I deny that "an aggregate of particulars" is referring to "the elect." Read my examples. I have already proven that the way you have used this definition is false. Did you read what I posted?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I deny that "an aggregate of particulars" is referring to "the elect." Read my examples. I have already proven that the way you have used this definition is false. Did you read what I posted?
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Well you can deny it all you want, Christ specifically / Particularly said that He laid down His life for the Sheep Jn 10:15

15*As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

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Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Well you can deny it all you want, Christ specifically / Particularly said that He laid down His life for the Sheep Jn 10:15

15*As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

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I demonstrated that the definition you selected from the Lexicon did not apply to the "elect" Instead of acknowledging that you want to go on to another scripture. Talking to you does no good. You are either unable or unwilling to understand the opinions and thoughts of others.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I demonstrated that the definition you selected from the Lexicon did not apply to the "elect" Instead of acknowledging that you want to go on to another scripture. Talking to you does no good. You are either unable or unwilling to understand the opinions and thoughts of others.
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No you didn't. To do that you would have to prove that Christ death wasnt for the Sheep. Jn 10:15. Do you deny this?

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Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
No you didn't. To do that you would have to prove that Christ death wasnt for the Sheep. Jn 10:15. Do you deny this?

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I see, you want to bypass the fact that I refuted your ridiculous definition of "world." Well, then let us look at this new scripture. To understand John 10:15 you have to understand the context. Going back to verse 3 we find that:

3...The sheep hear his voice[/B], and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice (John 10:3-4 ESV)

Here Jesus is defining the characteristics of His sheep:

1. They hear his voice and His call (the Spirit draws and gives understanding)
2. A personal relationship exists between them and the Shepherd
3. He goes before them to lead and guide them and they follow after Him (this is obedience)
5. They know His voice.

Calvinism (at least as you represent it) holds that people are already his sheep from before the foundation of the world, long before they have heard His call or responded. However, Jesus would not define anyone as a sheep who has merely heard His voice. The kind of thinking and behaving He described here is what separates a domestic sheep from a wild goat.

Anyone who hears His voice, listens and understands the gospel, and follows after him will be a sheep no matter what they were before. Paul was once a murderer. He became a sheep only after He heard the Master and Jesus was revealed to him. His response was to submit himself.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I see, you want to bypass the fact that I refuted your ridiculous definition of "world." Well, then let us look at this new scripture. To understand John 10:15 you have to understand the context. Going back to verse 3 we find that:

3...The sheep hear his voice[/B], and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice (John 10:3-4 ESV)

Here Jesus is defining the characteristics of His sheep:

1. They hear his voice and His call (the Spirit draws and gives understanding)
2. A personal relationship exists between them and the Shepherd
3. He goes before them to lead and guide them and they follow after Him (this is obedience)
5. They know His voice.

Calvinism (at least as you represent it) holds that people are already his sheep from before the foundation of the world, long before they have heard His call or responded. However, Jesus would not define anyone as a sheep who has merely heard His voice. The kind of thinking and behaving He described here is what separates a domestic sheep from a wild goat.

Anyone who hears His voice, listens and understands the gospel, and follows after him will be a sheep no matter what they were before. Paul was once a murderer. He became a sheep only after He heard the Master and Jesus was revealed to him. His response was to submit himself.
Click to expand...

I see you want to evade the fact that Christ specifically said that He died for the Sheep Jn 10:15. All Christ Sheep make a World!
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
I see, you want to bypass the fact that I refuted your ridiculous definition of "world." Well, then let us look at this new scripture. To understand John 10:15 you have to understand the context. Going back to verse 3 we find that:

3...The sheep hear his voice[/B], and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice (John 10:3-4 ESV)

Here Jesus is defining the characteristics of His sheep:

1. They hear his voice and His call (the Spirit draws and gives understanding)
2. A personal relationship exists between them and the Shepherd
3. He goes before them to lead and guide them and they follow after Him (this is obedience)
5. They know His voice.

Calvinism (at least as you represent it) holds that people are already his sheep from before the foundation of the world, long before they have heard His call or responded. However, Jesus would not define anyone as a sheep who has merely heard His voice. The kind of thinking and behaving He described here is what separates a domestic sheep from a wild goat.

Anyone who hears His voice, listens and understands the gospel, and follows after him will be a sheep no matter what they were before. Paul was once a murderer. He became a sheep only after He heard the Master and Jesus was revealed to him. His response was to submit himself.
Click to expand...

People who are Christ Sheep are Sheep before they hear and believe the Gospel. That's why Jesus says His Sheep He has shall hear hear His voice in the future Jn 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Hence they are Sheep before they are believers, and that is why they become believers, because they were Sheep. Now if anyone doesn't become a believer and follower of Christ, its because they were not Sheep. Jn 10:26

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Shasta said:
Anyone who hears His voice, listens and understands the gospel, and follows after him will be a sheep no matter what they were before. Paul was once a murderer. He became a sheep only after He heard the Master and Jesus was revealed to him. His response was to submit himself.
Click to expand...

A sheep never turns into a goat. The sheep is always a sheep and the goat is always a goat. Paul was a sheep even when he was cold blooded killer of Christians. He was just a dysfunctional and confused sheep.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Epoisses said:
A sheep never turns into a goat. The sheep is always a sheep and the goat is always a goat. Paul was a sheep even when he was cold blooded killer of Christians. He was just a dysfunctional and confused sheep.
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Does God create goats so that he can condemn them to hell?
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Robert Pate said:
Does God create goats so that he can condemn them to hell?
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No but he does know the end form the beginning and election is a biblical concept. God is the potter and we are the clay. This is hard saying for anyone who trusts in their works for Salvation. God chooses one and rejects the other before they did anything good or bad like with Jacob and Esau.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
People who are Christ Sheep are Sheep before they hear and believe the Gospel. That's why Jesus says His Sheep He has shall hear hear His voice in the future Jn 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Hence they are Sheep before they are believers, and that is why they become believers, because they were Sheep. Now if anyone doesn't become a believer and follower of Christ, its because they were not Sheep. Jn 10:26

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Click to expand...

When Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice" the word hear is not in the future tense as you claim. It is in the present tense Therefore it means "my sheep are hearing (or are listening)to My voice." He was talking about something that was going on in the present. People were coming to Him, listening to His message. Out of those some were responding to His teaching by believing and obeying (following Him). Those people were sheep. They did not become sheep until the completed this sequence.

If what you are saying were true people would be believers while they are still unbelievers.
They would be in the Kingdom of Light BEFORE being transferred out of the Kingdom of darkness.
They would be alive even while they are still spiritually dead.

This is self-contradictory nonsense.
 
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