The scripture says that Christ died for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.
Everything that you say is contrary to scripture, this is what makes you a heretic.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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The scripture says that Christ died for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.
Everything that you say is contrary to scripture, this is what makes you a heretic.
Shasta
Well-known member
You, sir, are remarkably consistent with your beliefs. I have to respect that. Still I do not think we need to wrap our minds around the idea of God hating Esau. The Bible also says:
"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his." (Deuteronomy 21:15-17)
We cannot infer from this that God is okay with men hating their wives. Then there is the statement by Jesus:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26).
I do not think Jesus is telling us that we have to literally hate our parents in order to follow Him.
The explanation comes from the Hebrew/Aramaic roots of their language. In this I am going to cite a page dealing with the subject:
The idea is "preference" or favoritism and there is no question that Jacob and his line were favored over Esau. To understand the full context we have to also remember that Paul begins Romans 9 with a discussion of God's election of Israel for chosen nation status. Paul begins by lamenting the unbelief of the majority of his fellow Jews (Romans 9:1-4). Then he lists all the blessings they had been given (Romans 9:4-5) . In Romans 9:11-13) he continues discussing the God's sovereign selection of Jacob rather than Esau. The fact that he is talking less about them as individuals than about the peoples or nations that came FROM them can be seen by looking back to the scriptures he is citing:
…22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is so, why then am I this way?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger." (Genesis 25:22-23)
The "older shall serve the younger" part of this prophecy did not happen during the lives of the two men. Only much later did the nation that came from Jacob, Israel, become strong enough to subdue the nation that from Esau, Edom.
The other scripture being quoted here was written some 1500 years after this one.
…2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau,
(Malachi 1:2-3)
This scripture speaks of how God chose Israel favoring it over Edom. It also speaks of Edom (the nation that came from Esau) which is just about to fall into judgment (a second time). That it is speaking of an earthly nation and an earthly judgement can be seen in the rest of the verse:
...and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness." 4 Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever (Malachi 1:3-4)
We can see here that it was the arrogance of Edom that eventually caused them to be judged. They were not condemned because of some prenatal ill will on the part of God. Both God's justice and his patience with this nation is evident, without having to rely on a belief in the pre-existence of soul an idea that was condemned as heretical by the early Church.
Grace and peace
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Robert Pate's Ongoing Blogging - Not Discussion
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http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-s-Nazi-God&p=4915860&viewfull=1#post4915860
AMR
Robert Pate's Ongoing Blogging - Not Discussion
Yes, by all means watch for Robert's latest blog entry. After all, he is not really starting dozens of threads weekly to actually discuss anything.
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-s-Nazi-God&p=4915860&viewfull=1#post4915860
AMR
Shasta
Well-known member
Christ cannot save anyone as long as they are rejecting Him
Nanja
Well-known member
That scripture has been explained to you many times over but can't comprehend it Eph. 4:18.
What about the condemned world this scripture speaks of 1 Cor 11:32?
Or the cursed goats on Jesus' left hand whom were never loved or chosen of the Father Mat. 25:41?
False accusation. God has allowed satan to blind your mind because you are LOST 2 Cor. 4:3-4!
But be informed: False teachers, such as yourself, have been ordained by God to a greater condemnation James 3:1 than the rest of the non-elect.
Prov. 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
2 Thes. 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ
False prophet Pate: the god and christ you preach of and serve, is NOT the Lord God and the Lord Jesus Christ of scripture!
You can reply to my article, IF YOU CAN. You really have nothing to say.
You just can't accept what the Bible says. How do you sleep at night?
A plain and simple truthful answer.
Nanja
Well-known member
Eagles Wings
New member
I believe that the Almighty Godhead, can/will, at any hour of the day or night, or week or year or decade, save anyone of His own choosing.
Almighty God need not wait for His finite creature to say yes.
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beloved57
Well-known member
I know for certain you were looking in the mirror when you said that!lain:
I am not the one struggling with Hebrews 2:9 or those scriptures that tell us that Jesus is the savior of the world, 1 John 2:2.
I have no problem with any of the scriptures that you post, because they all apply to me.
Nanja
Well-known member
O yes you are!
O yes you do! The only world Jesus Christ is the Saviour of is the World of His Sheep!
Some do John 3:18,36; Jude 1:4 and some don't!
Shasta
Well-known member
Let us see what the Word has to say about this. Specifically let us look at Romans 5:7-10. I am using this because I have seen some attempt to use this to support the position that God saves people without their consent, or that He saves them even when they are still His enemies.
In verse 10 the word "reconciled" is katallasso which, according to Strong's Concordance is made up of two smaller words: katá (down) and allássō ("to change"). Together the meaning is intensified so that it means "down to an exact point," Properly it means to decisively change, "as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position." This is what happens when a person is saved. They go from being an enemy of God to someone who is in harmony with Him. One cannot cease to be an enemy until this happens. Conversely, when one is reconciled they cease to be an enemy. There is no such thing as being an enemy of God and being reconciled to Him at the same time.
This describes the result of being saved but it does not tell a person "what they must do to be saved." For this we must look either at the evangelical sermons in Acts or maybe this well known verse in Romans:
9...if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. 11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame” (Romans 10:9-11)
Notice that this verse begins with IF indicating that it is a promise and that all that follows make up the conditions by which a person may be saved. The evangelists in the Bible never tell people to "wait on God for an inward witness that you have been chosen already." They boldly set forth the conditions for salvation just as Paul does here. They present believing as preceding and causal to the work of the Spirit in the human heart. The individual is not expected to wait on "saving grace" but surrender their will on hearing the message. WHAT one is to believe (the Resurrection, that "Jesus is Lord")as well as how one is to respond to the gospel is clearly laid out as well, just as it is in this verse. So we see that there is nothing here about some unilateral action on the part of God and a passive response on our part.
Shasta
Well-known member
The scriptures do not use the term the "world of His sheep." Of his sheep is a clause you have inserted into the text. Still, if you want to adopt this belief then you will have to explain 1 John 2:2 which Pate already posted.
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Nanja
Well-known member
I have explained in my own words the World Christ died for according to John 10:11, 15.
beloved57
Well-known member
Shasta
Well-known member
This is true. These are indeed your words and ideas. If really wanted to explore the actual OBJECTIVE meanings of the Greek word for "world" (kosmos)you could have used the online linguistic tools which are both simple and available for everyone to use. While we are all perfectly free to hold our opinions and to express them in the manner we wish to, let us not insert our ideas into the text and then act as if we got them from there.
When I looked the word up in Thayer's Greek Lexicon I could not find any entries that defined "world" as a population of the "elect." Most often, according to the Lexicon, that is, not me, the term means simply the "inhabitants of the earth." Did Christ die for the whole world? Well the Bible says the following:
He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)
First John says that Christ was the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins, that is for all who like John are believers. Then he adds that the sacrifice was also for "the whole world." Now if "world" meant "the world of His sheep" then John has repeated himself for he himself IS a sheep in the Lord's pasture. Instead he says the sacrifice was made for everyone else by the lexical definition, for "all the inhabitants of the earth."
Shasta
Well-known member
Sure. Who else would he save but sinners?
Unregenerates are unregenerates. Let Pate be.I know for certain you were looking in the mirror when you said that!
We sleep good knowing God has a plan. We don't worry.
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