Calvinism is the devils lie.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Calvinism is the devils lie.
Shasta
Well-known member
This is the traditional Calvinist view which holds that Romans 9-11 is about the salvation of individual people instead of being about God's selection of the Jewish people, the apostasy of all but the "believing remnant" and the subsequent grafting in of Gentile believers into the faith-root of Israel. Once this is made about the salvation experience of individuals we have to accept that Esau, a man supposedly emblematic of all unbelievers was hated by God and what clearer expression of God's hate can be made except that God's own fingers should shape him into a vessel of wrath, one with a moral character deserving of eternal damnation.
I wonder if any in the Calvinist camp when preaching to a group of people would say "God hates most of you," or if they speak of His love would say, "God loves only a small number of you." These are accurate statements of the determinist position but I have yet to hear them spoken from the pulpit. Instead they hedge. The full import of this is probably only revealed among the inner circle of the (assumed) "elect."
In the determinist view, Esau's fate, like that of all unbelievers was decided before he was born, not on the basis of anything he had done or would do but solely on the basis of God's arbitrary ("sovereign") decision. Not only are the inner guidance controls of such people set irrevocably for destruction, there is no sacrifice for them even if they were able to decide differently since Christ died only for the elect.
Despite the injustice and merciless nature of this state of affairs God's actions are said to be "right," even good, because God is "right" and "good" although, in such a universe as this, these words lose their meaning. The real principle at work is "might makes right." Because God is the all powerful sovereign nothing He does can be questioned. If we object it is only because His will and mind are utterly inscrutable.
Like the Emperor Palpatine God will enforce His will regardless of what anyone thinks. In the final day the Emperor will exert His control over all in heaven and earth and force them like puppets to mouth the words "He is Lord." Then everyone, even believers like me will be forced to see that everything He did was "right" To be clear I am only speaking of God as I believe Calvin has portrayed Him. I am not talking about the God of the Bible.
Whenever I am rebuked for my moral objections to Calvinism I am told my views are an affront to the Almighty but is God the Supreme Lawgiver not responsible for giving us our moral compasses in the first place? Is He not the source of right and wrong or are we wrong to expect "the Lord of all the earth to do right"?
I wonder if any in the Calvinist camp when preaching to a group of people would say "God hates most of you," or if they speak of His love would say, "God loves only a small number of you." These are accurate statements of the determinist position but I have yet to hear them spoken from the pulpit. Instead they hedge. The full import of this is probably only revealed among the inner circle of the (assumed) "elect."
In the determinist view, Esau's fate, like that of all unbelievers was decided before he was born, not on the basis of anything he had done or would do but solely on the basis of God's arbitrary ("sovereign") decision. Not only are the inner guidance controls of such people set irrevocably for destruction, there is no sacrifice for them even if they were able to decide differently since Christ died only for the elect.
Despite the injustice and merciless nature of this state of affairs God's actions are said to be "right," even good, because God is "right" and "good" although, in such a universe as this, these words lose their meaning. The real principle at work is "might makes right." Because God is the all powerful sovereign nothing He does can be questioned. If we object it is only because His will and mind are utterly inscrutable.
Like the Emperor Palpatine God will enforce His will regardless of what anyone thinks. In the final day the Emperor will exert His control over all in heaven and earth and force them like puppets to mouth the words "He is Lord." Then everyone, even believers like me will be forced to see that everything He did was "right" To be clear I am only speaking of God as I believe Calvin has portrayed Him. I am not talking about the God of the Bible.
Whenever I am rebuked for my moral objections to Calvinism I am told my views are an affront to the Almighty but is God the Supreme Lawgiver not responsible for giving us our moral compasses in the first place? Is He not the source of right and wrong or are we wrong to expect "the Lord of all the earth to do right"?
beloved57
Well-known member
The Truths of Tulip are Gospel Truths. You reject Gospel Truths !
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beloved57
Well-known member
If anyone Christ died for is lost into perdition, then God would be unjust. Because everyone Christ died for has been declared righteous before God Rom 5:19!
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Calvinist begins his Gospel message by warning persons of their sins. All men are morally accountable to God, under His Law, and need to be told how far short they come to living holy lives. Until a soul recognizes his sinfulness, he cannot grasp his need for salvation.
No Calvinist speaks of God hating persons, for no Calvinist has knowledge of who is or will be saved by the grace of God. Our job is simply to warn of sin and present the remedy for the human plight, found only in the Person and works of Jesus Christ.
But you do not know all who Jesus died for, do you? You have admitted you do not hold to universal salvation, so you admit grace is particular. There is no other position to take. So how do you proclaim the Gospel message? Do you tell people Jesus Christ died universally for all, when you do not believe it, just to tickle their ears and perhaps persuade them to believe a fact you do not believe?
Wrong. The principle at work is God is righteous in all His ways.
It is foolhardy to question Almighty God . . .
When anyone questions God, they demonstrate unbelief. Especially those who have His revelation and declarations at hand in the Holy Scriptures.
Indeed. God gave Adam knowledge of His Holy Law, through righteous commands, in the very beginning, in the garden of Eden. This is the same ETERNAL Law, further revealed in the Decalogue given to the nation of Israel and is the same Law under which Christ incarnated and obeyed in His human nature, without sin . . on behalf of His spiritual children, who find themselves held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.
This Gospel message above begins with warning of falling short of God's Holy Law and commands.
Your view and accusations against Calvinists and the Reformed faith, are incorrect and misplaced. And you appear to like it that way, and are closed-minded and only desire to argue with those of that faith who attempt to communicate truthfully with you.
Lon
Well-known member
Realize you are placing yourself empathetically with the lost on this point. Do you understand you are arguing from a pagan worldview to say such a thing? Remember you are a Christian and turn that around: If God predestined you, He loves you incredibly and made sure you'd belong to Him from the foundation of the world. Point? Think before knee-jerk or your theology will always be a thin veneer of emoting rather than deep thinking over scripture.
Robert, you are on ignore. Believe it or not, this is an interjection of grace. I generally find you lack contemplative ability and are happy with thin veneer understanding of God and His Scriptures (whether you are Calvinist, Arminian, or anything else, your theology is thin). Here is your sign to think and contemplate more, knee-jerk less.
Think on this too: You look for Arminians and others for approval of men, rather than seeking the approval of God on TOL. That's a dangerous place to be. I pray I am always interested in God's thoughts and ways that are 'not like man's thoughts and ways.' Think harder....think longer....pray a whole lot more, Robert.
Lon
Well-known member
There you go, the reason you are thin and starving spiritually: You do no know Jacob wrestled with God
Yes BUT you aren't doing your daily devotions. You came up with a 'quick' conclusion and stopped growing like a baby stuck on milk. You really don't want deeper truths of God, Robert. You are satisfied with your thin veneer of theology understanding and frankly, don't care if there is anything else. You really don't. You don't even wonder why. You are in good company of other thin-veneers but that's no comfort. I'd rather be troubled and in the Hands of Almighty God than comforted by the agreement of men or their praises. Think about why you continue your lambasts against Calvinism on TOL, Robert. Pointing fingers ALWAYS has three pointing back and those three, by your actions on TOL, point to a shallow man no longer in love with His God. You are on a man-made crusade that pleases Him none at all. Pray harder, Robert. Learn what that means.
There you go, the reason you are thin and starving spiritually: You do no know Jacob wrestled with God
Yes BUT you aren't doing your daily devotions. You came up with a 'quick' conclusion and stopped growing like a baby stuck on milk. You really don't want deeper truths of God, Robert. You are satisfied with your thin veneer of theology understanding and frankly, don't care if there is anything else. You really don't. You don't even wonder why. You are in good company of other thin-veneers but that's no comfort. I'd rather be troubled and in the Hands of Almighty God than comforted by the agreement of men or their praises. Think about why you continue your lambasts against Calvinism on TOL, Robert. Pointing fingers ALWAYS has three pointing back and those three, by your actions on TOL, point to a shallow man no longer in love with His God. You are on a man-made crusade that pleases Him none at all. Pray harder, Robert. Learn what that means.
You are a perfect example of a religious man. Always striving, always fretting. You are troubled, but God has nothing to do with it. Calvinism is a satanic doctrine derived from the mind of a heretic. If you support it or continue in it, you will never see heaven.
Nanja
Well-known member
If you don't embrace Christ and his Gospel as your only means of salvation you will never see heaven.
Nanja
Well-known member
The Gospel of God's Grace in Christ entails being Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to have forgiveness / remission of sins Eph. 1:4-11.
2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
No other way to see Heaven, Pate!
Shasta
Well-known member
You seem to think that Christ's suffering has been exactly quantified and calculated to cover the exact weight of iniquity his "elect" are guilty of. Thus, if Christ died for someone who refused the offer of salvation an equivalent number of suffering "units" will be lost. This does not at all sound scriptural to me. Does the blood of the Savior have only a finite amount of worth that is just barely enough to cover the "debts" of the elect but not enough to cover the debts of all mankind? I happen to think the blood of Christ is priceless and it could therefore cover the sins of all humanity if only they could only be brought to believe in Jesus. John the Baptist, after all, said the Messiah would take away the sins of the world and not merely the sins of a few.
In the Bible, the offer of salvation is not presented as if it were only available to a few but to all. When Jesus spoke of the water of eternal life He invited anyone and everyone with a need to drink as much as they wanted (John 7:37-39,Revelation 22:17). Are we to suppose this was a trick, a mere play on words. If so then it amounts to false advertising - offering an endless supply when the water of life is actually so scarce that it has to be rationed among a relatively small number of secret subscribers. In the feast parables we encounter no scenario where there was a want of supply only a deficiency in the number of guests because some refused to come. You would think someone as powerful as the King would force his pre-selected guests to come to the feast but He does not. Instead He simply replaces them with beggars and the kind of riff-raff that many of us were.
The limited view of the atonement makes God out to be a miser...less than a miser really for a miser might be sitting on a fortune. The God of limited atonement does not have sufficient supplies to save the world. Parsimoniously He has decided not to suffer one bit more than is exactly necessary to purchase those whom He has pre-selected to believe. The rest can go, literally, to hell. I do not really think this is an accurate view of God. I do not believe the precious blood of Jesus can be quantified because it is of infinite value. It is of such worth that it can potentially save everyone, including those who do not and will not believe. The fact, that it is not effectual for many accents the magnitude of God's generosity and mercy.
ttruscott
Well-known member
While I agree, I see you ignoring the blasphemies your theology is based upon...sigh.
Predestination is another Calvinist fairy tail.
I teach salvation by faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone and you call that blasphemy?
Shasta
Well-known member
I agree but it is pointless for the "non-elect" to reflect on their sinfulness since, in your system, God has provided no way for them to be saved. Moral persuasion, knowing that I am guilty and deserving of punishment is part of the case we make to the lost in hopes of arousing their moral consciences. Afterward we present the hope they can have in Christ if they would but believe. As I am speaking with them there is no thought in the back of my mind that they may not be of the elect. The invitation of the gospel is open to everyone and the supply of grace is sufficient for anyone and everyone. His supply is not limited so as to supply the redemptive needs of a select few. Unlike you I do not have to act as if the invitation is open, knowing that it is not.
But didn't God HATE Esau? In another thread you argued that the two brothers Jacob and Esau did not represent two nations, one chosen and the other not, but two classes of individuals, one elected to salvation and the other to destruction. If this is an accurate interpretation then God hates the non-elect. I am not suggesting that you hate them. I am saying that your God does and has since before they were even born. The Heavenly Potter's own fingers have shaped them into "vessels of wrath" so that when they pass from this life they will be in a state of moral degeneracy deserving of the destruction that He has prepared for them.
If you were speaking to a group of unbelievers about salvation (and were being perfectly transparent)would you tell them this side of Reformed Faith. Would you admit"God hates most of you and for those of you in this category there is absolutely nothing you can do about it." Whether you would say this overtly this is perfectly consistent with Calvinism. You can hide behind the uncertainty of not knowing who the non-elect are but your God knows and HE has never stopped hating them since He brought them into being.
You are the one who apparently needs to asks who Jesus died for. I do not. I believe His sacrifice is sufficient for everyone (though it is efficacious only for those who believe). Because of this, I do not have to second-guess God about who He might or might nor have "chosen to be saved." The scriptures present salvation as an open invitation, not one that only has the appearance of being open. Since there is no limit to the amount of grace that is available for salvation through Christ's blood I do not have to think about who may or may not be covered by it. Instead I share the "invitation" with whomever I can get to listen.
Apparently, in practice, you share Jesus much as I would. There have been many great Reformed preachers and evangelists. Still, I wonder, when you Reformed folk tell someone "God loves you" do you have to tell yourself that "well...it MIGHT be true. They may be one of the elect?" Since I believe Christ died to make salvation available to all I can say to anyone without reservation that God loves them. I never think about whether they have been chosen.
You will not scare me away with thunderings and intimidation. I know that the "man behind the curtain" (Calvin) simply does not want his ideas to be be questioned. However, I am not questioning God only Calvin's distorted representation of Him. Neither am I denying the scriptures only Calvin's false system of interpretation. If you notice I have been putting exegesis forward as a primary means of interpreting them. I would not do that if I were denying them altogether.
Calvin may seem to be a venerable source of wisdom to you but in history he is a late-comer. He wrote in the 1600s quoting Augustine who formed his theology of determinism in the 500s. The earlier Greek speaking teachers, theologians and apologists who could read the original text of scripture in their native tongue, denied determinism altogether labeling it Gnostic and pagan.
Looks like we agree on this. However, it still seems inconsistent that God would give his law to Adam only to predestinate him to disobey it.
I am questioning a particular theological system - Calvinism. Historically and in the present times many effective ministers have come out of the Reformed Church. This does not make Reformed Doctrine free of error. In fact there are major problems with it.
Okay you have tried to communicate truthfully with me. Do you think my communications with you have been less than honest?
Accusing me of arguing for argument's sake is an ad hominem judgment of my motives. As a point of fact, you are wrong. We just happen to disagree with each other. I have changed my mind on a number of issues as a result of the discussions I have had on this site. However, I am not willing to give in just to be agreeable. If that is what you expect from others here then you have certainly come to the wrong place to have a dialogue.
Shasta
Well-known member
There is no better way to see what the message of salvation was than to consult the men that first preached it. For example, Paul, in Romans 10, says:
9...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved (Romans 10:9-10)
This scripture (and others) plainly say that you are saved because you believe. The sentence begins with IF which introduces a conditional sentence in which the result, salvation, isdependent on the hearer's response which is faith. If anyone acts upon the condition the result (salvation) will most certainly follow or else the promise is false.
All the calls to salvation I am aware of are framed in more or less the same way. No scripture says, "search your heart to see if you feel the marks of grace. If you do then you are saved already. God does not want our faith to rest on the shifting sands of our emotions but on the sure promise of His Word. Acting on the truth is what saves a person.
Now you might say "no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them" and, while this is certainly true, just because the Spirit is drawing a person does not necessarily mean they will yield. There are many instances of people being strongly influenced by the Spirit to believe and surrender but they refuse. Of course, if they resist the Spirit in this manner then they end up with a hard heart which is a perilous state to be in. Nevertheless, the Bible teaches us that the Spirit, omnipotent though He is, can be resisted, quenched, and grieved by puny human beings(Acts 7:51, 1 Thessalonians 5:19, Ephesians 4:30) This is possible only because He has not chosen to overpower our wills. That is more characteristic of demons who take possession of humans like dolls, speaking out of their mouths and tossing them about without their consent. The Holy Spirit does not do this.