California lawmakers seek to end 'personal belief' vaccine exemptions

[Granite]

Do you stay away from children?

Uh, no? And I say I doubted it because the odds that two states have the exact same mandates for certain vaccines didn't strike me as all that likely (especially in a somewhat libertarian-minded state like New Hampshire). For all I know, they might be identical.

Do you tell your vaccinated friends

:rotfl:

Is that seriously how you think, you raving nutter? I've got classifications for friends now? Some wear a big red "V" when I see them, some don't?:rotfl:

You're kind of a crazy person. A dangerous, reckless, death-seeking crazy person.

 

[elohiym]

Seriously, if you want to run the risk of your own children dying horribly ...

It has already been conceded in this thread by measles vaccine advocates that vaccination has risks. One risk of the vaccine is dying horribly, and courts in several countries have been awarding damages for injuries caused by the MMR vaccine.

Measles vaccine advocates claim the risks are low. Okay, well, the evidence from the CDC show the odds of getting measles absent a vaccine was low and the chance of death was lower than the chance of having a seizure from a single dose of MMR vaccine (multiple doses are given).

... go ahead and knock yourself out. That kind of insanity doesn't entitle you to any kind of high ground whatsoever.

Uh, you're not vaccinated, hypocrite.

 

[Granite]

Uh, you're not vaccinated, hypocrite.

Where did you get this idea?:kookoo:

Seriously, elo, if you have a death wish for you and yours, go right on ahead. Don't pretend your stupidity has any kind of nobility to it. There is nothing wise or righteous in allowing your kids to die to prove a point. Ask a Jehovah's Witness.

 

[resodko]

Do you know what an immune serum globulin is?

he doesn't understand any of this


it's like confronting a troofer who sez "jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel!"

 

[elohiym]

Not to mention exposing other children to the diseases ...

Only a person who has the disease can do that, and vaccinated children can still get measles infection. It's believed natural immunity conveys lifelong protection.

 

[Granite]

Only a person who has the disease can do that

Which is exactly the point, come to think of it.

The vaccine's 95% effective.

Do anti-vaxxers seriously just get a kick out of this? It's feeling more and more like risk-seeking behavior for its own sake.

 

[elohiym]

Where did you get this idea?:kookoo:

Are you fully vaccinated? Yes? No?

When did you get your last MMR?

 

[Granite]

Are you fully vaccinated? Yes? No?

When did you get your last MMR?

Why don't you ask me to turn my head and cough, while you're at it?:chuckle:

By the way, the MMR isn't exactly an every-year thing. You...you do know that, right?

How do you feel about typhoid and polio vaccines?

 

[elohiym]

Do anti-vaxxers seriously just get a kick out of this? It's feeling more and more like risk-seeking behavior for its own sake.

The risk of getting measles before the vaccine was low, the risk of death very, very low, and the rate of death had been in decline before the vaccine was introduced. You want children intentionally exposed to certain risk from vaccines, multiple times, to prevent the slight chance of a relatively harmless infection with a very low death rate. It makes no sense even if we ignore the evidence that measles infection may be beneficial to the health of the population.

 

[elohiym]

Why don't you ask me to turn my head and cough, while you're at it?:chuckle:

By the way, the MMR isn't exactly an every-year thing. You...you do know that, right?

You are evading the questions because you are not vaccinated, hypocrite.

Do you get the influenza vaccine every year? Yes? No?
Are all your immunizations current? Yes? No?
When was the last time you received the MMR?

 

[Granite]

You are evading the questions because you are not vaccinated, hypocrite.

You're a lying tool. And crazy to boot.

Do you get the influenza vaccine every year? Yes? No?

Every year? No. There's been a winter here or there where I was just lazy or forgot.

Are all your immunizations current? Yes? No?

That I'm aware. Doc.:yawn:

When was the last time you received the MMR?

It would've been a long time ago by definition, considering I'm a grown adult, you epic dope.:yawn:

How do you feel about typhoid and polio vaccines?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

No, relative to the enormous population of the world, and relative to the other things children die from yearly, like riding a bicycle.

Why would you compare it to the population of the earth to determine lethality? You should be comparing it to other causes of death. How many children do you reckon die every year from measles versus riding bicycles?

No, that's your logic. I understand that 21st century terrorists want to detonate nukes and use biological weapons to kill masses of people.

And deaths from terrorists are only a small fraction of the population of earth, ergo they are relatively harmless. :doh:

U.S. population in 1963 was 189.2 million. According to the CDC and estimated 3-4 million a year were infected and there were 500 deaths. Before vaccination, 3,000,000 cases is less than 2% of the population, and 500 deaths is less than .02% of the people that get infected--a tiny fraction of the population. Not scary. Understand?

The MMR isn't a vaccine against death, it's a vaccine against a disease. It doesn't impact the number that die from the disease, it only reduces the chances of getting the disease in the first place. Furthermore the disease can still be harmful without resulting in death.

Even so:

...a resurgence of measles occurred during 1989–1991, again demonstrating the serious medical burden of the disease. More than 55,000 cases, 123 deaths, and 11,000 hospitalizations were reported.

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

That math works out to about 0.2% of cases during that period resulting in death, and 1 in 5 requiring hospitalization.

If a person gets it the chance of death from infection is less than the chance of getting a seizure from the vaccine (.03%)

Vaccines prevent many febrile seizures. Getting a child vaccinated as soon as recommended prevents febrile seizures by protecting young children against measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, influenza, pneumococcal infections and other diseases that can cause fever and febrile seizures.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/FebrileSeizures.html

 

[resodko]

Why would you compare it to the population of the earth to determine lethality? You should be comparing it to other causes of death. How many children do you reckon die every year from measles versus riding bicycles?

how many children do you reckon contract measles while riding bicycles?

 

[elohiym]

Do you even read the links that you post?

Yes. Here it is for everyone to read:

There was evidence of association between a negative history of measles, exposure in early life (possibly injection of immune serum globulin after exposure), and development of immunoreactive diseases, sebaceous skin diseases, degenerative diseases of bone and cartilage, and certain tumours. It is suggested that the presence of measles virus specific antibodies at the time of acute infection interferes with development of specific cytolytic reactions, and enables intracellular measles virus to survive the acute infection. If this hypothesis is verified, use of immune serum globulin after measles exposure has to be of immune serum globulin after measles exposure has to be reconsidered.​

If true, it suggests getting a natural measles infection could potentially reduce the development of immunoreactive diseases, sebaceous skin diseases, degenerative diseases of bone and cartilage, and certain tumours.

MMR boosters stimulate the body's production of IgG Measles antibodies, which are the cause of the immunoreactive fortitude.

So? That has little to do with my point about measles infection potentially having benefits with a very low risk of serious side effects or death.

"History of measles" includes the attenuated measles virus of the vaccine minus the horrible disease. Do you know what an immune serum globulin is?

he doesn't understand any of this

I gave many people injections of immunoglobulin in my former job.

Have either of you ever injected someone with immunoglobulin? Yes? No?

it's like confronting a troofer who sez "jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel!"

An appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy, Mr. Scientist.

 

[elohiym]

Why would you compare it to the population of the earth to determine lethality?

I'm not. Learn to read.

You should be comparing it to other causes of death. How many children do you reckon die every year from measles versus riding bicycles?

According to the CDC, "In 2010 in the U.S., almost 800 bicyclists were killed and there were an estimated 515,000 emergency department visits due to bicycle-related injuries."

According to the CDC, "During 2001--2008, a median of 56 (range: 37--140) measles cases were reported to CDC annually..."

Measles is hardly a threat. The rates of bicycle related deaths and injuries in 2010 appears to exceed the rates of death and injury for measles before the vaccine.

And deaths from terrorists are only a small fraction of the population of earth, ergo they are relatively harmless. :doh:

I already addressed that.

The MMR isn't a vaccine against death, it's a vaccine against a disease. It doesn't impact the number that die from the disease, it only reduces the chances of getting the disease in the first place. Furthermore the disease can still be harmful without resulting in death.

What are the odds of developing the moderate and severe complication from measles? You still haven't told me.

...a resurgence of measles occurred during 1989–1991, again demonstrating the serious medical burden of the disease. More than 55,000 cases, 123 deaths, and 11,000 hospitalizations were reported.

That means the death rate was higher per case after the vaccination than before. Interesting, and not good press for the vaccine.

Might the fact they had just doubled the dose because of previous high vaccine failure rates caused the increase, or perhaps the poor economic conditions in the U.S. at that time and just prior to that time?

That math works out to about 0.2% of cases during that period resulting in death, and 1 in 5 requiring hospitalization.

One's odds appear to have been better before the vaccine was licensed.

Vaccines prevent many febrile seizures. Getting a child vaccinated as soon as recommended prevents febrile seizures by protecting young children against measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, influenza, pneumococcal infections and other diseases that can cause fever and febrile seizures.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/FebrileSeizures.html

So take the .03% chance of having a seizure (every time my child gets the vaccine) to prevent febrile seizures that my children never have, never have had?

We are discussing the known adverse reaction from the vaccination. 1 in 3000 have a seizure because of the vaccine. That risk is repeated with boosters.

 

[elohiym]

Every year? No. There's been a winter here or there where I was just lazy or forgot.

The CDC recommends you get the influenza vaccine yearly. Will you comply with that recommendation or be a hypocrite every once in a while because you are lazy or the issue is so unimportant you forgot? You must not think influenza is more deadly than the relatively harmless measles virus.

That I'm aware. Doc.:yawn:

Have you receive the three doses of hepatitis B vaccine that children are being mandated to get? If not, why should they get that vaccine, but not you?

It would've been a long time ago by definition, considering I'm a grown adult, you epic dope.:yawn:

How do you know your immunity hasn't waned? You care whether of not other people's children have immunity, but don't care if your immunity has waned?

How do you feel about typhoid and polio vaccines?

You can't deal with a discussion about the measles vaccine. Why move on to others? Besides, I've already made a point about the change in the diagnosis of polio that would have drastically reduced the number of cases and you've offered no rebuttal.

When someone offers you a particular vaccine do you assume it's necessary because you believe other vaccines are necessary, or do you assess each vaccine individually like a rational person would?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

I'm not. Learn to read.

Let's review:

DS: "There were 145,700 fatalities from measles in 2013. That is 8x the number of fatalities caused by terrorism globally in the same year"

ELO: "Out of how many reported cases worldwide in a population? Regardless, you're describing fatalities in a population of 7,000,000,000, so it's not many relatively speaking."

DS: "Relative to say terrorism?"

ELO: "No, relative to the enormous population of the world..."

DS: "Why would you compare it to the population of the earth to determine lethality?"

ELO: "I'm not. Learn to read."

:dizzy:

According to the CDC, "In 2010 in the U.S., almost 800 bicyclists were killed and there were an estimated 515,000 emergency department visits due to bicycle-related injuries."

"How many children do you reckon die every year from measles versus riding bicycles?

NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION A total of 677 pedalcyclists were killed in motor vehicle crashes in 2011. The 14-and-younger age group accounted for 9% of those fatalities

According to the CDC, "During 2001--2008, a median of 56 (range: 37--140) measles cases were reported to CDC annually..."

"...Of the 118, 105 (89%) patients were unvaccinated."

The incidence of measles is low in the United States because there is high vaccination coverage. Shall we compare the numbers to a country that has low vaccination coverage?

Measles is hardly a threat.

It is not a threat now because of high vaccination coverage. Why does this point keep evading you? Interesting how measles deaths hovered around 400 before the vaccine and is now only a small handful after widespread vaccine coverage, and a national effort to eradicate the disease. Anti-vax boneheads keep rescuing the disease from the brink of eradication.

What are the odds of developing the moderate and severe complication from measles? You still haven't told me.

I don't know, I haven't seen the statistics on the matter, it makes no difference because if you don't get the disease you can't have complications from it.

That means the death rate was higher per case after the vaccination than before. Interesting, and not good press for the vaccine.

Which would be a salient point if you think the MMR is a vaccine against death. The MMR only reduces the chances of catching measles. It is of no import on the death rate of those who already have it.

Might the fact they had just doubled the dose because of previous high vaccine failure rates caused the increase

The addition of this second dose for school-aged children raised the vaccine efficacy rate from 90-95% to 99.7%

[In 1989] The increased incidence of measles in preschoolers living in densely populated urban areas reflects low vaccination levels in these populations. While these children are generally well immunized by the time they enter school, immunization levels in some inner cities are as low as 49% in children 2 years of age (3). Many of these children receive intermittent health care and are less likely to be age-appropriately immunized with other antigens (4). Innovative efforts need to be directed toward reducing barriers to immunization services and toward full use of existing opportunities to vaccinate eligible children whenever they present for health care. This approach should increase opportunities for vaccine administration in highly susceptible populations and reduce transmission to infants too young for routine immunization. Suboptimal vaccination also played a major role in measles incidence among adults: 53% of cases in adults greater than or equal to 20 years of age were in unvaccinated persons for whom vaccine was indicated.

source

90% of those infected during the 1989 outbreak were unvaccinated, again no surprise there. vaccine failure rates didn't cause the increase, failure to vaccinate did.

Those pesky facts again!

or perhaps the poor economic conditions in the U.S. at that time and just prior to that time?

See above.

One's odds appear to have been better before the vaccine was licensed.

Only if you don't understand the difference between estimated cases and reported cases.

So take the .03% chance of having a seizure (every time my child gets the vaccine)

We are discussing the known adverse reaction from the vaccination. 1 in 3000 have a seizure because of the vaccine. That risk is repeated with boosters.

So in your calculus, you'd rather the 0.02% chance of death :rip: and 20% chance of hospitalization over the 0.03% chance of temporary seizure with no known long-term adverse consequences? :dizzy:

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

You gotta love the logic behind using low incidence rate of measles cases after the widespread introduction of the vaccine, to argue that measles is a 'relatively harmless' disease and therefore doesn't need to be vaccinated against.

:chuckle:

 

[Rusha]

You gotta love the logic behind using low incidence rate of measles cases after the widespread introduction of the vaccine, to argue that measles is a 'relatively harmless' disease and therefore doesn't need to be vaccinated against.

:chuckle:

Not sure that *logic* has much to do with these arguments ...

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

I gave many people injections of immunoglobulin in my former job.

Then you knew it was a nonsense argument before you posted it. Immune serum globulin is a method of immunization, immunoglobulins in particular, utilize antibodies derived from the measles vaccine among others.