BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

Red, you have about three chances left. When it says "ALL THINGS" it is subject to the main point raised in the passage, namely "IN CHRIST". God's word puts the two together, "ALL THINGS IN CHRIST", you want to separate them and ignore half.

For he will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that All things are in subjection, it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that God may be all in all.
(1Cor:27-28)

Ok Stipe, how would you explain this? all things WILL be in Christ, God works these things out within his own will, This says the 'whole universe', not just some - most of it- or a minority of it but all of it, all things will be made subject to God, now is there any hyperbole about this verse? It seems to make its point as strongly as it can, if God created the universe then if its his will to make the entire universe and everything in it subject to him then I am not going to argue with him about it

It does come down to either believing that God can accomplish what he sets out to do or that he cant, the doctrine of ET uses as its starting point that God cant accomplish what he wills or desires, normally its the argument that man's free will gets in the way, is it beyond God to accompish his will without having to force anyone in the process?, I believe so, ET'ers dont, one thing that universalism cannot be accused of is limiting the power of God, can those who believe in ET say the same.....? No

 

[red77]

I think it is so ridiculous that I don't know if it is worth spending time. I can't believe people actually believe that God is the Lake of Fire. Sure I have read about it and heard it, but I still cannot believe that people's dogmatic refusal to admit the unBiblical aspects of their doctrine leads them to make ridiculous applications such as this.

But OK. I will respond.

Did God create Himself Dave Miller? Did God create Himself for the punishment of the devil and his angels?

pastor, here is a newsflash, i've encountered people who believe in eternal separation who believe the same thing...its not the sole realm of universalist thought! many believe the LOF to be a symbol for separation from God and not a literal fire, how do you explain this?
Its just as ridiculous to me that you would sooner believe the LOF is some huge literal fiery pit given the blindingly obvious use of symbology throughout the Book of Revelation, until you're ready to accept that symbolism is rife and as such also with the LOF then its your own dogmatic refusal that doesnt alow you to see anything else.............

 

[Ecumenicist]

I will let God answer from His Word:

In 2 Thess. 1:3-9 Paul says:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

In order to get a good perspective, I will quote this verse from several translations:

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(NASB) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(CEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

(TEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

(RSV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(GodsWord) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power."

(Holman NT) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength,

Dave Miller. The Bible says your doctrine of God being the Lake of Fire is false teaching.
I do not care what else you have to say on this matter it is false teaching clearly refuted in Scripture. You can make whatever arguments you like, and they will fall on deaf ears because I listen to the Word of God over people and the Word of God is plain! The punishment of the wicked happens in the Lake of Fire which is AWAY from the presence of God, not IN HIM!

Stephen (Logos) I hope with all my heart that you don't believe this drivel........

PK, where does this destruction come from? Where does it eminate from? What
is the source of this destruction?

Young's Literal:

2 Thes: 9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

One more question for you. If evil is removed, wiped out, destroyed, is it not destroyed
for eternity?

Here's the rub, PK. I'm not exactly a Universalist, Logos and others know this, though
I agree with and appreciate the interpretations they bring to bear.

I believe that the field of wheat represents a single person's heart, even a single entity's
heart. And throughout life, the weeds grow up with the wheat. And through life, and in the
end, the angels seperate the weeds from the wheat, the wheat from the chaff, the good
fish from the bad, the waste from the purest silver, and that which is evil within a person,
within an entity, is indeed consumed in God's Eternal Fire.

As long as there is one single grain of wheat within a person's heart, there is hope. But
if that last grain of wheat dies, is no more, and nothing good remains within the heart, then
by the Grace of God the annihilation sufferred in the presence of God is utter and total.
And evil is gone forever, for eternity.

Logos and I disagree one one tiny point, one which I won't argue because I hope his
interpretation is right in the end... Logos believes God Created all things with Good, and
that Good can be restored, in and of and from all things. That last grain of wheat remains
in even the most depraved, desperate sinner.

I love Logos for His Hope and optimism, and I stand beside him in knowing, without a
doubt, based on Scripture, experience, and Divine Revelation given to my very soul,
that God is in Essence Pure, Undiluted, Perfect Love. Such Love would never allow
much less intentionally create a place of eternal suffering.

 

[Frank Ernest]

I believe that the field of wheat represents a single person's heart, even a single entity's
heart. And throughout life, the weeds grow up with the wheat. And through life, and in the
end, the angels seperate the weeds from the wheat, the wheat from the chaff, the good
fish from the bad, the waste from the purest silver, and that which is evil within a person,
within an entity, is indeed consumed in God's Eternal Fire.

What was wrong with Jesus' declaration and explanation of this parable in Matthew 13:38-43?

I appreciate your beliefs on the matter, but they do not coincide with what Jesus said.

 

[Ecumenicist]

What was wrong with Jesus' declaration and explanation of this parable in Matthew 13:38-43?

I appreciate your beliefs on the matter, but they do not coincide with what Jesus said.

Matt 13: 38

and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one,

39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.

40`As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

41the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,

42and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

43`Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear.

One thing I've observed over the years is that the influences that apply to individuals also
apply equally well to society.

The interpretation works with the "world" representing a single human heart, or society in
general.

Miscreants will be cast into the fire, and purified. We are all fields within the field.

And yet, we are promised that if we accept Christ into our hearts, we will experience
healing, restoration. The fact is, God's purifying fire is experienced as terrifying for those
who resist it, but is experienced as healing restoration for those open to accept it.

This is the seed that Jesus plants, this is Salvation, the acceptance of God's healing
Grace, and in accepting our eyes are opened to the truth about the angel with the
flaming sword which blocks our passage to paradise. That angel is terrifying to those
who resist, but its the gateway to paradise for those who accept. God's Grace is
unchanging, eternal, its our own lack of understanding that prevents us from living in the
Kingdom, here and now.

Like the prodigal child, when we come to recognize God's Grace as a precious gift, and
we return home, we find we are welcome. But as long as we, of our own volition, reject
God's Grace and instead eat pig slop, the very thought of returning home is terrifying.

Those that resist, that do not see, do not recognize God's Grace, will be cast
into the flaming sword of God's presence when all things are reconciled to God, and it will
be terrifying, but sometimes experiencing healing can be a terrifying experience.

 

[Nineveh]

Ok, I may well be wasting my own 'keystrokes' but what the hey......

If you truly believed that, you wouldn't have invited me back to another dialog.

Firstly everyone will confess, its written that every knee will bow and every tongue confess - to the glory of God, is this right?

This point was trounced by PK in the debate. I could force you to say "uncle" if I twisted you arm behind your back, but that doesn't make you believe in your heart that I am your uncle.

Secondly if condemnation is the state of one who doesnt believe then we were all condemned at one point until we had faith, the condemnation was not permanent - nor is it.....

Until our physical death, then we are judged. Those who have rejected Christ will be judged by their own righteousness and be rewarded with their eternity away from the God they reject. Those who are in Christ will be judged by His righteousness and be rewarded with their eternity with the God they accept.

Please keep in mind, we are without excuse.

And finally all you've really managed to do is to change 'especially' to 'only' albeit in an inventive way, Christ is basically only a potential saviour of all and only of believers if what you say is true - not especially....

And already all you have managed to do is ignore the Truth.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a literal story, something tells me you think it might be......

Aren't parables meant to convey something? If the parts I highlighted don't really convey the Law is sufficent to bring folks to Christ, then what does it mean?

and yes, of course I loathe the idea of pointless unending torment, basically it comes down to two choices- do I believe that God who has decreed everything to the counsel of his will and can actually accomplish his will and desire - or do I listen to those who claim that God will not in fact be able to accomplish his own will for whatever reason that may be....? :think:

If you are asking me, personally, I'd rather you ditch your comfy doctrines that lead people to have a false hope they can escape the Righteous Justice of God. Try putting all the stuff you have ever heard from "some guy" out of your head and start reading in Genesis and praying to the God who inspired that Book. You might be shocked to find out God really is Just.

 

[Nineveh]

... We are all fields within the field. ...

: assumes the lotus position and chants : ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm

 

[Stripe]

unrepentant garbage

Tell PK when you have figured out who was preaching God's word and who was spreading lies via means of BRXII. I'm not responding to you anymore...

...again.

 

[logos_x]

I could force you to say "uncle" if I twisted you arm behind your back, but that doesn't make you believe in your heart that I am your uncle.

Yes, yes...we've all heard that over and over.

But...what if they DO believe in their heart?

In you're view it's just...."oh well, too late" and God cannot or will not do anything...right?

 

[Nineveh]

Yes, yes...we've all heard that over and over.

But...what if they DO believe in their heart?

In you're view it's just...."oh well, too late" and God cannot or will not do anything...right?

If they did believe in their hearts, what would be the point in following it up by sending them to the Lake of Fire? After all to be saved, all it takes is, "...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead..." If God is just going to force folks to believe, why wait?

 

[Aimiel]

It isn't that it is too late, it is simply a matter of fact that God's Grace isn't His Presence. His Presence is all-consuming fire. Grace is what allows us to stand there, and that Grace is only available through faith in Jesus. Universalists hold that everyone will be given that grace, and that isn't what God has said. Beyond that, if someone is sent to hell to be corrected or converted, then it would not be Jesus which brings them to Heaven, it would be 'works' because their sufferings will make 'payment' for their sin, and not Jesus' Blood. How could Jesus' Blood be applied to someone in hell? It just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[logos_x]

If they did believe in their hearts, what would be the point in following it up by sending them to the Lake of Fire? After all to be saved, all it takes is, "...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead..." If God is just going to force folks to believe, why wait?

I believe in an open future NIN...I don't think we end up in a Calvinistic universe in the end.

 

[logos_x]

It isn't that it is too late, it is simply a matter of fact that God's Grace isn't His Presence. His Presence is all-consuming fire. Grace is what allows us to stand there, and that Grace is only available through faith in Jesus. Universalists hold that everyone will be given that grace, and that isn't what God has said. Beyond that, if someone is sent to hell to be corrected or converted, then it would not be Jesus which brings them to Heaven, it would be 'works' because their sufferings will make 'payment' for their sin, and not Jesus' Blood. How could Jesus' Blood be applied to someone in hell? It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Why doesn't Jesus blood being applied to those in hell make any sense?

 

[Aimiel]

If God is just going to force folks to believe, why wait?

That's what I say. Why doesn't God just say, "Ollie-ollie oxen free," and everyone can get into Heaven? If He were to 'force' people to believe, it wouldn't be faith, it would be slavery, and He doesn't want slaves, He wants children who love Him for Who He is, not for what He can give them.

 

[Aimiel]

Why doesn't Jesus blood being applied to those in hell make any sense?

Why create a schizophrenic housing unit? Why proclaim that a place is eternal, without any escape, and then cleanse those who end up there? It just doesn't make any sense. You have to discard too much of The Word of God to believe universalism, and I simply can't understand how anyone with any sense can be hoodwinked by it. It's foolishness.

 

[Nineveh]

I believe in an open future NIN...I don't think we end up in a Calvinistic universe in the end.

We are without excuse now, so what makes the difference?

 

[logos_x]

That's what I say. Why doesn't God just say, "Ollie-ollie oxen free," and everyone can get into Heaven? If He were to 'force' people to believe, it wouldn't be faith, it would be slavery, and He doesn't want slaves, He wants children who love Him for Who He is, not for what He can give them.

I also don't believe that salvation is slavery.

I simply say the choice is still there...

 

[logos_x]

We are without excuse now, so what makes the difference?

Making the choice more of a no-brainer isn't force...simply forcing the issue.

You say that death makes all the difference. I don't.

 

[Nineveh]

It isn't that it is too late, it is simply a matter of fact that God's Grace isn't His Presence. His Presence is all-consuming fire. Grace is what allows us to stand there, and that Grace is only available through faith in Jesus.

Now that hits the nail on the head. About the closest example here on earth is a loud mouthed non repentant murderer finally facing the judge that holds the criminal's very life in his hands. Is that a good time to be a loud mouthed jerk? Nope. Does it make the murderer repentant? Nope. While forced submission to authority may change one's actions it doesn't necessarily change one's heart.

Now to apply that to the Ultimate Just and Righteous Judge of all of Creation, it boggles my mind some seem so flippant. Perhaps they really haven't bothered to dwell on the degree of Holiness, Righteousness, and Justice this God personifies.

Universalists hold that everyone will be given that grace, and that isn't what God has said. Beyond that, if someone is sent to hell to be corrected or converted, then it would not be Jesus which brings them to Heaven, it would be 'works' because their sufferings will make 'payment' for their sin, and not Jesus' Blood. How could Jesus' Blood be applied to someone in hell? It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Well said .

 

[logos_x]

Well said .

...And completely untrue.