BRXII Battle talk

[dale]

I begged forgiveness. Will you call this a boast that I can brag about? Coming to understand the the Sovereign Creator God of the Universe saw me as worthy of death and being terrified and humbled?

If you came to this understanding all on your own without God working in your life showing you your need? Yes

Of course He does...

And He does so by grace. Everything He does for us is by grace.

 

[Nineveh]

No, I was a Christian, Nineveh. And I regarded the Bible as authoritative at one time. But when I started to reflect on the doctrine of eternal torment, instead of just sort of uncritically accepting it as true (just because that's what the Christians I knew believed and what the Bible appeared to teach), I began to doubt that it could be true. It was evil in its extremity and mercilessness, and the God I believed in was moral and good.

...so you found a "way" that agrees with you.

When you decided to read "what God says," were you reading an English translation, or the original language? Are you sure that interpretation is not really "involved" in what you get out of the Bible now?

I trust the God of the Bible. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

I wrote: I agree that one needs open lines of communication, I just don't agree on what constitutes the best "phone."

How did you "find" God was telling the truth about something like that? Do you mean you believed it?

We all have the opportunity to believe or disbelieve.

 

[Nineveh]

Correct... until God "kisses" them. Then He brings them to life and they believe.

When I was convicted by the Law I had the option to turn my back on God. Had I done that I would not have been baptised into the Body of Christ or forgiven.

If you came to this understanding all on your own without God working in your life showing you your need? Yes

The Law convicted me. That's what it's designed to do.

And He does so by grace. Everything He does for us is by grace.

Had I not repented, I would not have received His grace.

 

[Aimiel]

And even though the rich man in hell repented, there was no grace (or exit) available to him...

 

[red77]

And even though the rich man in hell repented, there was no grace (or exit) available to him...

It was a parable.............

 

[CabinetMaker]

It was a parable.............

Says who? Jesus did not offer it as a parable.

 

[red77]

Says who? Jesus did not offer it as a parable.

Says anyone who is intellectually honest about it, read literally the parable makes no sense, noone who is being tormented with flame would have the cognisance to ask for a 'drop of water for their tongue', if they could somehow utter anything intelligible it would be for the whole fire to be doused! People on fire cannot hold rational conversations!
The only reason this is trotted out as literal proof of hell is because there is a name mentioned, and 'Lazarus' if I'm not mistaken translates as 'misery', it was metaphor, the rich man has wealth, Lazarus (misery) has none, two opposites of the spectrum and a message about how we should treat our fellow human beings....

 

[dale]

When I was convicted by the Law I had the option to turn my back on God. Had I done that I would not have been baptised into the Body of Christ or forgiven.




The Law convicted me. That's what it's designed to do.



Had I not repented, I would not have received His grace.

I'm not denying your participation, Nineveh. What I'm saying is you could not have repented without Him first drawing you. Knowing you better then you know yourself, He knew exactly what to do to be successful at granting you repentance. Loving everyone else as much as He does you, I believe He will do likewise with them (if not in this eon, then in a future one).

 

[CabinetMaker]

Says anyone who is intellectually honest about it, read literally the parable makes no sense, noone who is being tormented with flame would have the cognisance to ask for a 'drop of water for their tongue', if they could somehow utter anything intelligible it would be for the whole fire to be doused! People on fire cannot hold rational conversations!
The only reason this is trotted out as literal proof of hell is because there is a name mentioned, and 'Lazarus' if I'm not mistaken translates as 'misery', it was metaphor, the rich man has wealth, Lazarus (misery) has none, two opposites of the spectrum and a message about how we should treat our fellow human beings....

So Jesus raised misery from the dead?:dizzy:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

No claim that the rich man was in a fire. We do know that he was in torment and that there was no way out of it for him. We do know that even in his agony that he could speak. We know this because this was spoken by Jesus and Jesus doesn't lie, does He.




In any case, a parable is story used to teach. Real or parable, the message of this passage is clear - There is great casm fixed between "heaven" and "hell" that cannot be crossed by people in either location.

 

[red77]

So Jesus raised misery from the dead?:dizzy:

So you think that this is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead then? Check out the translation of lazarus yourself if you dont believe me.....

No claim that the rich man was in a fire. We do know that he was in torment and that there was no way out of it for him. We do know that even in his agony that he could speak. We know this because this was spoken by Jesus and Jesus doesn't lie, does He.

Er, the rich man in this story says "i am in agony in this fire" and you say no mention of a fire? :dizzy:
You are being intentionally obtuse, you know fine well that someone who is literally on fire would not be able to speak so either suspension of belief has to be greatly employed to read this literally or it is in fact a parable, if you believe that torment is what it says then people on fire cannot speak!!!!

In any case, a parable is story used to teach. Real or parable, the message of this passage is clear - There is great casm fixed between "heaven" and "hell" that cannot be crossed by people in either location.

Then you missed the message about how we should treat others as so often people do when they think that this story conveys eternal pain

 

[CabinetMaker]

Er, the rich man in this story says "i am in agony in this fire" and you say no mention of a fire? :dizzy:

That is entierly my bad. Yes, he is in a fire.

You are being intentionally obtuse, you know fine well that someone who is literally on fire would not be able to speak so either suspension of belief has to be greatly employed to read this literally or it is in fact a parable, if you believe that torment is what it says then people on fire cannot speak!!!!

So you think Jesus lied about the afterlife? Why would he do that. In this passage that covers several topics including the impassable chasm between "heaven" and "hell", why would Jesus lie about it? He did not. He said exactly what needed to be said. You refuse to accept the teaching of Jesus.

Then you missed the message about how we should treat others as so often people do when they think that this story conveys eternal pain

That is only one of the points. Yes, we need to care for one another. But don't ignore the rest of the teaching either. The rich man is in torment, on fire, and there is no escape for him. Jesus's teaching, not mine.

 

[red77]

That is entierly my bad. Yes, he is in a fire.

So you think Jesus lied about the afterlife? Why would he do that. In this passage that covers several topics including the impassable chasm between "heaven" and "hell", why would Jesus lie about it? He did not. He said exactly what needed to be said. You refuse to accept the teaching of Jesus.



That is only one of the points. Yes, we need to care for one another. But don't ignore the rest of the teaching either. The rich man is in torment, on fire, and there is no escape for him. Jesus's teaching, not mine.

Then you need to explain just how a man can talk while on fire and especially so eloquently as the rich man, also the rich man is not in the lake of fire and has not yet been judged so to say that the chasm is an eternal one also does not hold true as whatever you believe the LOF to be - hell along with death is thrown in there.....taken literally this story does not make sense! As I said - anyone who is being intellectually honest would not try and make out that someone on fire could talk......

 

[CabinetMaker]

Then you need to explain just how a man can talk while on fire and especially so eloquently as the rich man, also the rich man is not in the lake of fire and has not yet been judged so to say that the chasm is an eternal one also does not hold true as whatever you believe the LOF to be - hell along with death is thrown in there.....taken literally this story does not make sense! As I said - anyone who is being intellectually honest would not try and make out that someone on fire could talk......

Again, you deny the teachings of Jesus. I do not have to explain anything. My Lord and Savior gave me the story of Lazars and the rich man to instruct me. I take my Lords teaching at face value. If Jesus said he could speak while in agony in the after life, I believe Him. Jesus knows what the afterlife will be, I do not.

You reject the teachings of Jesus. I cannot call you a Brother in Christ since you so unashamedly discard the teachings of the one you claim to follow.

Parable or real story, the teaching is the same and you reject it because you don’t believe Jesus knows more about the afterlife than you.

 

[red77]

Again, you deny the teachings of Jesus. I do not have to explain anything. My Lord and Savior gave me the story of Lazars and the rich man to instruct me. I take my Lords teaching at face value. If Jesus said he could speak while in agony in the after life, I believe Him. Jesus knows what the afterlife will be, I do not.

You reject the teachings of Jesus. I cannot call you a Brother in Christ since you so unashamedly discard the teachings of the one you claim to follow.

Parable or real story, the teaching is the same and you reject it because you don’t believe Jesus knows more about the afterlife than you.

I believe Jesus knows more about the afterlife than either of us......

If you choose to call someone unchristian because they see a deeper meaning in the story of the rich man and Lazarus then thats your call, do a search on Lazarus and see what it translates as, I happen to believe that Jesus manages to save the world as he declared, I'm sorry you dont....

 

[CabinetMaker]

I believe Jesus knows more about the afterlife than either of us......

If you choose to call someone unchristian because they see a deeper meaning in the story of the rich man and Lazarus then thats your call, do a search on Lazarus and see what it translates as, I happen to believe that Jesus manages to save the world as he declared, I'm sorry you dont....

I'm sorry you reject the teachings of Christ.

 

[PKevman]

Then you need to explain just how a man can talk while on fire and especially so eloquently as the rich man, also the rich man is not in the lake of fire and has not yet been judged so to say that the chasm is an eternal one also does not hold true as whatever you believe the LOF to be - hell along with death is thrown in there.....taken literally this story does not make sense! As I said - anyone who is being intellectually honest would not try and make out that someone on fire could talk......

Red we have been down this road before. We have been arguing this so long, I bet you forgot. Can a person on fire cry out in agony? Can a person on fire yell out intelligible words? Yes they can and do all the time! You make it as if this man is just sitting having a cup of tea and talking in a normal tone of voice. The context clearly shows he is crying out in torment!

Can a person on fire scream or not? If not please provide evidence that NOBODY on fire has ever screamed out in a way that they could be understood.

 

[red77]

I'm sorry you reject the teachings of Christ.

I dont, if I did I would believe that he cant accomplish that in which he set out to do.....

 

[PKevman]

So you think that this is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead then? Check out the translation of lazarus yourself if you dont believe me.....

Why do you get to pick and choose when Lazarus is referring to a real person and when it isn't? That is the point he was making. You say it isn't referring to a real person here, but you don't say that when Jesus raises ANOTHER person named Lazarus from the dead. Or did Jesus not raise a real person from the dead? Is Lazarus ever used as a name in the Bible? In fact it is only your predisposition to deny the ACTUAL teaching of this parable that leads you to deny that this is a real person. Only by denying that, can you twist this Scripture to fit a Universalist interpretation!

 

[red77]

Red we have been down this road before. We have been arguing this so long, I bet you forgot. Can a person on fire cry out in agony? Can a person on fire yell out intelligible words? Yes they can and do all the time! You make it as if this man is just sitting having a cup of tea and talking in a normal tone of voice. The context clearly shows he is crying out in torment!

Can a person on fire scream or not? If not please provide evidence that NOBODY on fire has ever screamed out in a way that they could be understood.

Yes pastor, you asked me if someone who was on fire could scream, I said yes (obviously) rather a different thing to being able to speak so eloquently as the rich man if this parable is to be taken literally, its not like he's screaming a couple of words, he's capable of holding a coherent conversation and people on fire are NOT capable of that!!!

 

[logos_x]

...as opposed to twisting it to fit an eternal torment interpretation.

You have yet to establish that theirs is correct and the only way acceptible.