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Z Man said:
Good point. What is your take on Psalms 90?
Psa 90:1 <A Prayer of Moses the man of God.> Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
It reaffirms my position on time, While God is from everlasting to everlasting, no beginning or end, the earth is not, God at some point in time actually created it, the mountains etc etc
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Peter pulls this verse out and uses it to apply to God's patience with men verses their patience..
Psa 90:5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
Psa 90:6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
Psa 90:7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
Psa 90:9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Psa 90:11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.
Psa 90:12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
Psa 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
Psa 90:14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
Psa 90:15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
Psa 90:16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.
Psa 90:17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.
Was there anything else in here you wanted me to comment on?
Do you believe God has always had thoughts within himself..?
I wasn't trying to prove that we need to be outside of time to see the future; I was merely making the point that God does not experience Christ's death forever. That event happened in OUR time, and God surpasses our time; He is beyond it. Like a page in a book, it only happened once, and God is not stuck in that one page. For us as characters in the book, or as a speck on the line drawn across the paper, Christ's death is a speck in our past, behind us on the line, or behind us in the pages (whichever analogy you prefer). To God, it too is a speck, but on our timeline.
You are saying that if God did not exist in our time, but was beyond it, then He would experience everything all at once. But that is taking the analogy of the line drawn on the paper, with God as the paper, and time as the line, and stating that the line is both time and God, and there is no paper. If God was also the line, then yes, Christ would be dying all the time in God's 'world'. But God isn't the line; He's the paper that the line is drawn on. Christ's death is a speck on that line, not specks all over the paper.
Make sense? You don't have to agree, but I want to make sure you understand how I believe in God and time.
To me you are saying everything has always existed and God can simply go back or forth to that point in time that is still there. It's still going on, but God doesn't have to have it before him at all times. Or are you saying God created time for us, but is not bound by it and can access real events that have already taken place, or will take place and look at them? Could God have walked the earth and manifested himself in the presence of Christ, via Mary, even before he created the earth and woman?
How long you think it may have taken him to create time?
This is a twofold question here.
1) Was it God's divine will that Israel worship Baal? Yes.
Zman, can you show me where God says it was my *divine* will for you to do what I didn't command, think or order?
2) Did God cause Judah to sin? No.
Was it God's divine will?
In your view he did. Because it was God's divine will and who can resist that? It was God's divine will because it glorified Him right?
You can't say God is not the cause, yet God is the cause of all things. Both cannot be true Zman.
My analogy was with humans. Of course God knew what was going to happen. In fact, that's why I believe He ordained all of this in the first place.
Then why does he "SAY" it didn't enter his mind nor did he order it? If someone is divine will it must cross your mind and be ordered..
Think about it; in my analogy, stating to your ex-girlfriend that "you never made her do such things" would no doubt lead her to think about how much better it was with you. In the same manner, when God told the Israelites that He had never commanded them of such atrocities that they had committed in worshipping Baal, Israel came to realize how great and glorious God truly was.
That makes no sense, because in your view God is the one who made them leave him, Think about it, your ex-girlfriend leaves you and becomes a mass murderer, you told her before not to ever do that, even though based on what you know about her you suspect she is going to.., but secretly you were making sure that is all she could do, then you tell her, this never entered my mind..that you "should" do this, I didn't order this..I didn't command it..She can simply reply, yes you did..I had no choice, why would I want to be with someone that wills me to leave them and murder other people?
Would you rather have a woman choose you because she could do otherwise, or because she could not.?
If you were never lost, how could you ever appreciate grace? In all things, may God be glorified.
So God controls, via his divine will people to rape and molest so they will love him, but pretends like he is against those things?
God's will for them, and everyone for that matter, is that we glorify Him. And that's what He gets, whether it be now, or in the end. Israel may of disobeyed God's command, but as for His will, no man can thwart that.
Then men have no will of there own.
When Jesus was weeping over Jerusalem and saying he often wanted to gather them, you would say no he didn't because if he did, it would have been so and that God had already locked it all down..
When James says let not any man say when he is tempted it's of God..but rather he is lead away by his OWN lusts..Your view is in conflict with this, beacuse you are saying it's more then God tempting them, he is making it happen..
Is it at all possible that God allows us to resist his will in certain areas and do contrary to it, so that we can love Him? You present God as a man who sees a women, kidnaps her and ties her up in his basement, trying to get her to want to be there..and love him..
I don't know if you are married, but one day you might want to be, do you want her to want you because she can choose otherwise, or because you hooked up some wires to her brain with a remote control?
In the end, all knees will bow, and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord. He'll get His glory, one way or another. That's His perfect will. We may not like it, and we may not even follow it sometimes, as Israel is seen doing here, but nonetheless, it still stands, and forever will.
How could we resist his perfect will?? "We may not follow it at times"??
I'm not saying Jesus didn't have power to do such a thing. I'm simply stating that He would never use it. His plan was for redemption for all mankind, so that He could receive glory. If calling angels down from Heaven would of glorified God more than sacrificing His own Son, it would of been done that way. But God knew better. Thus, Jesus had no choice.
But my question is, did he have the true freedom to do it? I didn't ask you if he would have, but if he COULD have, considering all the prophecies..and what would be your take on "Slain before the foundation of the world"
Is it possible what glorified God most is that Jesus had the freedom to call on those angels, but redeemed us instead. That Jesus could have really done other then the prophesies, yet with his freewill, chose not to, isn't that, in part not only the value of the cross, but the evidence for Christ love for us?
He is displeased with our actions, not His.
Zman, Bob was dead on in his latest post, "Contradictions" in Calvinism
We don't have a will, only God's will comes to pass, so our actions are His.
God was displeased with making man, true or false?
Now..if he was displeased..yet it was his divine will..and he knew before hand how it was going to be.., then he must want to be displeased with Himself..
Why would God be displeased with his own actions?
So with Israel in Jeremiah 19, who were under control of God's "Divine" will, God was displeased with his own will..
