BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[Z Man]

The problem is that many on "your side" believe God has decreed all events before the foundation of the world, Pre-ordained everything - including heinous evil which therefore makes him the author of, and complicent with, all evil. That is blasphamous and unfortunatly there are many like Z-man promoting this non-biblical heresy that we are God's evil robots which drives many more away from the Lord of Glory!

You misunderstand my views. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong, or blasphemous.

 

[Z Man]

A good thread was started by drb last night.... Does God Repent? This might be a good place to take the more off topic stuff.

Also somebody may want to start a new thread on the subject of Job. I think this would be really interesting.

Very well. I shall begin a thread concerning Job and the concept that God ordains the killing of people and the such. The thread can be found HERE.

 

[taoist]

Okay, while we're all waiting for another BRX post, could someone explain something for me? It strikes me that in order for a god's foreknowledge to inhibit free will, the god would necessarily have to give up atemporal existence.

I hope my thought is clear here, but let me expand a bit anyway.

If I've got the book of the ages in front of me and want to look at any page, I can do so because I live outside the book. In order to be constrained from knowing how the characters develop, there'd have to be some kind of rule that keeps me from flipping pages and looking. In effect, I'd have to become one of the characters in the book I'm reading.

In the same sense, in order for a god to be ignorant of any aspect of the future, it seems he must somehow be constrained, voluntarily or otherwise, from existing outside of time.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Z Man]

Okay, while we're all waiting for another BRX post, could someone explain something for me? It strikes me that in order for a god's foreknowledge to inhibit free will, the god would necessarily have to give up atemporal existence.

I hope my thought is clear here, but let me expand a bit anyway.

If I've got the book of the ages in front of me and want to look at any page, I can do so because I live outside the book. In order to be constrained from knowing how the characters develop, there'd have to be some kind of rule that keeps me from flipping pages and looking. In effect, I'd have to become one of the characters in the book I'm reading.

In the same sense, in order for a god to be ignorant of any aspect of the future, it seems he must somehow be constrained, voluntarily or otherwise, from existing outside of time.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Believe it or not, some people actually believe that God DOES NOT live outside of time, and thus the limitation.

 

[chatmaggot]

1) I would say to the above post that no such book exists to God.

and...

2) God isn't "outside" of time. God isn't effected by time as we are (grow old and decay) but God lives "in" time. For God to be "outside" of time that would indicate the EVERYTHING is an eternal now for God. Right now Adam is walking the earth. Right now Noah is on the ark. Right now Jesus is on the cross. Right now we are at the judgement seat of God.

 

[Z Man]

Let's at least 'act' intelligent...

Let's at least 'act' intelligent...

Dread Healm,

I don't mind that you disagree with me, or that you even call me a basketcase or a knucklehead, but could you at least please explain why you disagree? Just making random comments that attack someone personally because you disagree with them is a disgrace against your intelligence.

 

[taoist]

Well, Z Man, looks like you're a prophet.

:chuckle:

Thank you, umm, no, I'm not gonna call you by that name, CM. But I am interested in knowing why you see a problem with the statements you made in 2). Of course, the word "now" is temporal, but, seeing as we ourselves are temporal, I can't fault you for using improper vocabulary. After all, we only have words for things we experience ourselves.

(I do have at home a wonderful little book called "Flatland" by Edwin A. Abbott that shows pretty clearly how any particular dimensionality can be extended without causing contradictions.)

 

[taoist]

Dread Helm is known to be a youngster, umm, 15 or so I think.

 

[chatmaggot]

I am a math teacher taoist...and I to have "Flatland". It's one of those books most math teachers have read.

 

[chatmaggot]

Taoist,

I see a problem with the statements I made in point 2 because Jesus died once. He is not right now hanging on the cross continually forever. Right now God isn't judging the wicked by flooding the world. And then doing so again right now...and then now...and now again. Being "outside" of time means there really is no time.

 

[Z Man]

1) I would say to the above post that no such book exists to God.

and...

2) God isn't "outside" of time. God isn't effected by time as we are (grow old and decay) but God lives "in" time. For God to be "outside" of time that would indicate the EVERYTHING is an eternal now for God. Right now Adam is walking the earth. Right now Noah is on the ark. Right now Jesus is on the cross. Right now we are at the judgement seat of God.

Christ said, "I am the Alpha AND the Omega, the First AND the Last, the Beginning AND the End" (Rev. 22:13). He also made clear to the Pharisees that "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Jesus said He was I AM. That's very important. Not only does it indicate that Jesus was claiming deity, but the present tense of declaring 'I AM' indicates that God wasn't, or is to be, but just is. God made the same statement to Moses, "I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS. Just tell them, 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14). To me, this indicates that God always is, not will be or has been. He is the beginning AND the end, at the same time. If God existed in time, then He MUST be constrained by the same limitations as us, and thus cannot know the future, nor experience "one day as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4).

Does God exist outside time? The Scriptures seem to say He does.

 

[Clete]

Okay, while we're all waiting for another BRX post, could someone explain something for me? It strikes me that in order for a god's foreknowledge to inhibit free will, the god would necessarily have to give up atemporal existence.

I hope my thought is clear here, but let me expand a bit anyway.

If I've got the book of the ages in front of me and want to look at any page, I can do so because I live outside the book. In order to be constrained from knowing how the characters develop, there'd have to be some kind of rule that keeps me from flipping pages and looking. In effect, I'd have to become one of the characters in the book I'm reading.

In the same sense, in order for a god to be ignorant of any aspect of the future, it seems he must somehow be constrained, voluntarily or otherwise, from existing outside of time.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Time is not a thing which one can be in or outside of. Time is duration and sequence, nothing more. The idea that someone (even God) could exists outside of time is irrational and more importantly it is unbiblical. Thus leaving time is undoable and therefore God cannot do it. It does no injury to God in any way whatsoever to say that He cannot do the undoable (i.e. the rationally impossible). To say such things is only to limit God to the contraints of reality itself.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[chatmaggot]

Z Man...

Christ is the Alpha AND Omega...but not the OMALPHA! Just as Christ died once. Being an observer "outside" of time would seeing Christ being continually crucified. That's sick.

Being the Alpha and the Omega has doing to do with being in or out of time.

 

[taoist]

CM,
I am a math teacher taoist...and I do have "Flatland". It's one of those books most math teachers have read.

taoist,
As do most mathematicians.

CM,
I see a problem with the statements I made in point 2 because Jesus died once. He is not right now hanging on the cross continually forever. Right now God isn't judging the wicked by flooding the world. And then doing so again right now...and then now...and now again. Being "outside" of time means there really is no time.

taoist,
Being outside of flatland does not mean there is no flatland. It does, however, mean that one can access any portion of flatland without using a path that otherwise intersects flatland. Being "outside" of time, in this sense, means being in a space that includes time as a projection.

I have no trouble constructing a model space that includes random accessibility of an embedded space-time, or any number of nested model spaces that preserve the same property (homeomorphically). Nor would any such model require that a particular point in the embedded space-time have duration beyond that inherent to the embedded space.

In other words, the fact you can always look back at a particular page in the book doesn't mean the characters have to experience it again.

Z Man,
Does God exist outside time? The Scriptures seem to say He does.

taoist,
I know better than to argue the meaning of scripture as a nonbeliever with believers. (But I think your citations were quite compelling.)

Clete,
Time is not a thing which one can be in or outside of. Time is duration and sequence, nothing more. The idea that someone (even God) could exists outside of time is irrational ...

taoist,
I assure you that a model space including an embedded space-time is entirely viable. I've created much stranger algebraic objects in my time. As much as I hate to base a mathematical argument on authority, I'm afraid even a compressed course in the necessary topology would require dozens of posts. Trust me on this one, Clete.

Clete,
... and more important, it is unbiblical. Thus leaving time is undoable and therefore God cannot do it.

taoist,
(I accept your arguments that god cannot perform physical paradoxes.)

There's no particular reason why leaving time is undoable. In particular, even by your definition of time being nothing more than duration and sequence (which is contradicted by such physical quantities as "interval"), time requires a universe in which duration can occur and sequence can have meaning. Nothing can occur in a void. And in a void, there is nothing to sequence.

Christians do generally acknowledge that their god created the universe, implying that he "at one time" had existence outside of time.

Z Man has cited scripture in defense of his position, and I expect you'll do the same. But I am constrained from anything more than the most general comments on such citations, as christians almost without exception find criticism of their scripture by nonbelievers to be abhorrent.

***

Thank you all for your time in constructing answers to my question.

In peace, Jesse

 

[Shadowx]

Zz..zz.z

Zz..zz.z

Christ said, "I am the Alpha AND the Omega, the First AND the Last, the Beginning AND the End" (Rev. 22:13). He also made clear to the Pharisees that "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Jesus said He was I AM. That's very important. Not only does it indicate that Jesus was claiming deity, but the present tense of declaring 'I AM' indicates that God wasn't, or is to be, but just is. God made the same statement to Moses, "I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS. Just tell them, 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14). To me, this indicates that God always is, not will be or has been. He is the beginning AND the end, at the same time. If God existed in time, then He MUST be constrained by the same limitations as us, and thus cannot know the future, nor experience "one day as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4).

Does God exist outside time? The Scriptures seem to say He does.

All those verses are a statement of eternity; TIME without end. God always existed and never had a creator.

Was there a time when God created the universe or was it always here?

God is not in a constant state of regret is he, regretting that he HAD made man?
Jesus died ONE time for all..(Hebrews) Not over and over and over...like Catholicism and the outside of timers, demand

Questions I ask that you didn't respond to..again..
I removed one considering the turn in the discussion..

1)Zman, since you reaffirmed God ordains all things, please answer my simple question; does that include Jeremiah 19:4-5?

2)*

3) Prove that Jesus had *no choice* in the matter of the cross and that he didn't lay down his life of his own accord.

4) Was Jesus FREE to call on angels to come to his aid and rescue him from what scripture prophesied, as he said he could, or was God locked into His own forknowledge and previous prophesies of it? In other words at that moment, could it have gone either way, even though Jesus was "Slain from the foundation of the world"?

5) A while back, in another thread, you said that God was pleased with everything he did, I asked you about it then and you didn't reply, perhaps you didn't have TIME.. Yet the Bible shows us that God was displeased more then once, he regretted, was frustrated etc etc. Why does God show displeasure and regret if he is the direct cause of everything and only does that which is in his perfect will that brings Him glory? And if he does have exhausted foreknowledge, then he does things he knows he will regret right?

 

[Shadowx]

Z Man has cited scripture in defense of his position, and I expect you'll do the same. But I am constrained from anything more than the most general comments on such citations, as christians almost without exception find criticism of their scripture by nonbelievers to be abhorrent.

***Thank you all for your time in constructing answers to my question.

In peace, Jesse

Not only does it indicate that Jesus was claiming deity, but the present tense of declaring 'I AM' indicates that God wasn't, or is to be, but just is. God made the same statement to Moses, "I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS. Just tell them, 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14). To me, this indicates that God always is, not will be or has been.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

This verse says God is, was and is to come.
The word *BECAME* flesh, it wasn't always flesh.

I believe God thinks, then does..sequences that he thought about, then put into action, events in time he thinks about before he sets it in motion and can ponder it afterwards, Does God move from one thought to another, and if so, how much time does this take? If God has always had thoughts and it takes some time to go from one to the next, then time was not created, it always existed with God. Unless he created it so he could have thoughts?

 

[Z Man]

All those verses are a statement of eternity; TIME without end. God always existed and never had a creator.

So, you believe that eternity simply means time without end? Then how can God be in time and experience one day as if a thousand years has passed, and a thousand years as one day? I don't think that explains eternity as the same time we experience, just without end, but rather, a different eternity/time altogether; one that we do not experience in our own time.

Was there a time when God created the universe or was it always here?

God is not in a constant state of regret is he, regretting that he HAD made man?
Jesus died ONE time for all..(Hebrews) Not over and over and over...like Catholicism and the outside of timers, demand.

Jesus died once; yes, we can agree on that. And yes, to us, the universe did begin at some point in OUR time. But try and look at it the way toist has illustrated; God is beyond the book in which we are contained. He wrote the book and all of it's pages, and knows how it will end. To us, we live 'page by page'; we are contained within it's pages. But God is 'outside' of the pages; He can flip them and see what happens in the future, or in the past.

Another way to look at it is the way C.S. Lewis describes in his book, Mere Christianity. In it, Lewis explains that if you draw a line on a piece of paper, then that line can represent time and the paper can represent God. In other words, God encompasses all of time; He overshadows the whole 'timeline'. If you understand these concepts, then it's easy to understand that yes, the universe did begin at a time for us, and Jesus died once in our time. But God encompasses all of time. He is beyond it, and is God yesterday, today, AND tomorrow.

Questions I ask that you didn't respond to..again..

I never saw any questions directed toward me.. sorry..

Not to mention, Knight feels that we have gone off subject from the Battle Royale. So I really didn't want to continue to go off track.

1)Zman, since you reaffirmed God ordains all things, please answer my simple question; does that include Jeremiah 19:4-5?

Jeremiah 19:4-5
"'For Israel has forsaken me and turned this valley into a place of wickedness. The people burn incense to foreign gods – idols never before worshiped by this generation, by their ancestors, or by the kings of Judah. And they have filled this place with the blood of innocent children. They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

God's simply stating the obvious. He's illustrating to Israel how they have disobeyed Him and done things that He has never commanded them to do. God wants Israel to see how far this 'idol worshipping' has taken them off the beaten path. Baal (well, the priests who worship the false god) may command that the Israelites burn their children as sacrifices, but God states He has never commanded Israel to do such a thing when they followed Him. It's a true statement.

It's just like if you had a girlfriend who left you for another guy. Come to find out while talking to her after seeing her in the mall, she tells you that this guy demands that she keep her nails painted a certain color, her hair a certain length, and that she wear's only a certain type of fashion design. You reply, "Well, I have never told you to do such a thing", in hopes that she'll realize how good she had it with you. The same concept can be applied to this verse in Jeremiah.

3) Prove that Jesus had *no choice* in the matter of the cross and that he didn't lay down his life of his own accord.

Jesus had no choice, because His death was the only way to save us, and thus bring glory to God.

4) Was Jesus FREE to call on angels to come to his aid and rescue him from what scripture prophesied, as he said he could, or was God locked into His own forknowledge and previous prophesies of it? In other words at that moment, could it have gone either way, even though Jesus was "Slain from the foundation of the world"?

What does it matter? We can speculate all day long about what 'could of' happened, but it doesn't matter in light of Scripture. If God's plan for redemption to mankind was to take place, then Jesus had no choice but to give up His life. And that's exactly what happened.

I'm not going down the road of speculation, because it can get pretty nasty for both sides.

5) A while back, in another thread, you said that God was pleased with everything he did, I asked you about it then and you didn't reply, perhaps you didn't have TIME.. Yet the Bible shows us that God was displeased more then once, he regretted, was frustrated etc etc. Why does God show displeasure and regret if he is the direct cause of everything and only does that which is in his perfect will that brings Him glory? And if he does have exhausted foreknowledge, then he does things he knows he will regret right?

Your answer can be found HERE.

 

[Clete]

taoist,
I assure you that a model space including an embedded space-time is entirely viable. I've created much stranger algebraic objects in my time. As much as I hate to base a mathematical argument on authority, I'm afraid even a compressed course in the necessary topology would require dozens of posts. Trust me on this one, Clete.

Whatever. There is no need to "trust you". It is irrelivent.

Clete,
... and more important, it is unbiblical. Thus leaving time is undoable and therefore God cannot do it.

taoist,
(I accept your arguments that god cannot perform physical paradoxes.)

There's no particular reason why leaving time is undoable. In particular, even by your definition of time being nothing more than duration and sequence (which is contradicted by such physical quantities as "interval"), time requires a universe in which duration can occur and sequence can have meaning. Nothing can occur in a void. And in a void, there is nothing to sequence.

Christians do generally acknowledge that their god created the universe, implying that he "at one time" had existence outside of time.

It implies no such thing. As long as anything exists at all you MUST have duration and sequences. God has always existed and thus has experienced both duration and sequence. The simple statement that God's existance is eternal is a statement about His duration. And you brought up creation, God must have existed BEFORE creation, that's sequence.

And concerning the idea that you can leave time, all one must do to see the absurdity of such a thing is to ask very simple questions.
When did you (presumably God) leave time?
When did you come back?
How long were you gone?
Did you leave before or after you returned?
Are you still gone?
Have you ever left?

There are probably dozens of such absurd questions that one could ask, any one of which demonstrate that the idea is irrational. To leave time is to leave reality, nothing real can leave reality and even if it could it certainly couldn't come back again. In short if God ever left time, He would cease to be real.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

To me time is measured existence. Eternity is unmeasured existence. All God is saying is that he is not subject to measured existence as we are. Eternity and time are one and the same except that eternity is measured so that we may have a point of reference. We need to be careful how we make God subject to measured existence. Time is for our benefit not God's. I could be wrong but I have not heard a better explanation. If you have one bring it on and lets consider it.

 

[Shadowx]

So, you believe that eternity simply means time without end? Then how can God be in time and experience one day as if a thousand years has passed, and a thousand years as one day? I don't think that explains eternity as the same time we experience, just without end, but rather, a different eternity/time altogether; one that we do not experience in our own time.

The verses you sited state he was not created. God always is, doesn't say all things always were.

His word was not always flesh with him in heaven, It *Became* flesh and THEN dwelt among us, God wouldn't need for this to be eternally happening to ponder it. He can go to any point in his own thoughts about the future, or his memories about the past and ponder it.

" one day as if a thousand years has passed, and a thousand years as one day"Speaks of His patience: 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's patience is not a slave to time.
Your view says God is realllllly long suffering, he has always been suffering..and waiting..

Was the word always flesh, in real time from God's perspective or did it become flesh at some point in real time?

Jesus died once; yes, we can agree on that. And yes, to us, the universe did begin at some point in OUR time. But try and look at it the way toist has illustrated; God is beyond the book in which we are contained. He wrote the book and all of it's pages, and knows how it will end. To us, we live 'page by page'; we are contained within it's pages. But God is 'outside' of the pages; He can flip them and see what happens in the future, or in the past.

Zman, God, nor you for that matter would need to be outside of time to see the future.
I know my own future based on the choices I make, or will make. You don't need to be outside of time to know if your fighter plane is not fueled up, it's not going to function.
You can be in time and figure this out, with absolute perfect foreknowledge..

Another way to look at it is the way C.S. Lewis describes in his book, Mere Christianity. In it, Lewis explains that if you draw a line on a piece of paper, then that line can represent time and the paper can represent God. In other words, God encompasses all of time; He overshadows the whole 'timeline'. If you understand these concepts, then it's easy to understand that yes, the universe did begin at a time for us, and Jesus died once in our time. But God encompasses all of time. He is beyond it, and is God yesterday, today, AND tomorrow.

Jeremiah 19:4-5
"'For Israel has forsaken me and turned this valley into a place of wickedness. The people burn incense to foreign gods – idols never before worshiped by this generation, by their ancestors, or by the kings of Judah. And they have filled this place with the blood of innocent children. They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

God's simply stating the obvious. He's illustrating to Israel how they have disobeyed Him and done things that He has never commanded them to do. God wants Israel to see how far this 'idol worshipping' has taken them off the beaten path. Baal (well, the priests who worship the false god) may command that the Israelites burn their children as sacrifices, but God states He has never commanded Israel to do such a thing when they followed Him. It's a true statement.

Zman, I agree with you, God didn't command them at anytime to do this, in fact He commanded them not to do it earlier.

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

He also repeats Himself on this issue and distances himself from THEIR acts.
Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction. Jer 32:34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

He even tells us that they SHOULD not have done this and why this happened to them in verse 4 "Because you have forsaken me" What he wanted, desired, they forsook. It wasn't his presence in their actions that led to this, but his absence as you admitted in your example below.

So then, did God predestine, ordain them to do this? That was my question to you. He doesn't just say he didn't command it, he says it never entered his "heart"/"mind" that they should do it. Do you not hold to the view that God is the direct cause of every action? Did he cause Judah to sin by his perfect will and actions, or was it Israel that caused them to sin?

Did this event happened because God ordained, ordered, commanded, desired it and Israel simply had no choice to do otherwise?
It looks to me like God is saying, this is not of me.., it's because of you it happened..
And since we are on the issue of time, has this always been going on?

It's just like if you had a girlfriend who left you for another guy. Come to find out while talking to her after seeing her in the mall, she tells you that this guy demands that she keep her nails painted a certain color, her hair a certain length, and that she wear's only a certain type of fashion design. You reply, "Well, I have never told you to do such a thing", in hopes that she'll realize how good she had it with you. The same concept can be applied to this verse in Jeremiah.

Are you saying God didn't know this was going to happen, "Come to find out"?
Don't you believe God knew absolutely that Israel was going to paint their nails and where her hair a certain length because God ordained it to be so and they had no choice to do otherwise? Zman, according to your view as I understand it, Israel never left God's perfect will for them, so why would he say he never thought it or commanded it in "Hope" they would come back to Him (or realize something), whom they never really left..?

Jesus had no choice, because His death was the only way to save us, and thus bring glory to God.

You say he had no choice, Jesus says he did.
Jesus to Zman: "Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

Zman: No, you can't.

I'm not going down the road of speculation, because it can get pretty nasty for both sides.

You did more then speculate, you said absolutely "Jesus had no choice"

[Quote}Your answer can be found HERE.[/QUOTE]

I'd prefer if you just answered it here, cut and past if you like, but not some long drawn out commentary by Piper or others.
Question is, if God only does that which is pleasing to him, why does he say he is displeased?