Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

Status
Not open for further replies.

ex_fundy

New member
Originally posted by jeremiah
To ex-fundy:
So what is your stance. The global flood never happened? The epic of Gilgamesh is acccurate? inaccurate?

Generally, my "stance" is only tentative on such ancient issues. I realize that additional information could come along and change my conclusion.:think: But currently my position would be that I don't see the scientific evidence to corroborate the notion of a world-wide flood of the magnitude described in Genesis. I think we do have corroborating scientific evidence for multiple extreme regional floods. Knowing what we know about how legendary stories tend to evolve and get more grandiose, I suspect what we have is a case of Moses recording such a story that was passed down verbally.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by ex_fundy
Floods are a great way to create fossils (as are landslides, volcanic eruptions, and tar pits). But flood induced fossils can occur in any sized flood - not just worldwide.

Yet these fossils are found worldwide. On tops of mountains, in deserts, all over the place.

The volume of water necessary to rise above Mt. Everest simply doesn't exist on this planet. Therefore, one would have to theorize that the mountains rapidly rose a significant amount AFTER the water started to recede.

Maybe they did. There are fossils on Mt. Everest -- there's no disputing that fact.

"large scale" as Aussie said doesn't infer world-wide. But it does support the concept of multiple cultures having myths about big floods.

Pretty much every culture has a global flood legend. Not simply a massive flood, but a worldwide flood.

The melting of huge glaciers doesn't necessarily result in a linear trickle of water into the ocean. Obstacles would tend to clog the paths until the pressure became too much and the obstacles collapsed causing huge waves of water (just as we often see in naturally occurring floods today).

And this refutes my statement how?

You misunderstand how large masses of ice melt.

I don't think so.

Almost yearly my region suffers from floods caused by melting ice and snow.

Ice and snow that resulted from normal precipitation, right? The neighborhood in which I grew up floods everytime it snows and then melts.

And the creeks and rivers are already well established.

So is the one that runs by my old neighborhood. I used to swim there in the summertime.

If you multiply the amount of ice by 10 a 100 or 1000 times and don't already have all the nicely established water routes to the sea there'd be horendous flash floods.

True enough, but that still doesn't refute anything I've said.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Because the Globe has a lot of oceans Jack thinks that it could have somehow covered the highest peak in the World.

Correction -- the highest peak at the time. I've made no claims that the floodwaters reached around six miles above the current sea level.

That would be and extra 5 miles of ocean around the entire Globe. Or more than twice as much water than we have now.. where did it all go ?? Evaporation..

This is merely a strawman. Most of it is in the oceans, seas, and lakes of the world, while pretty much the rest of it is locked up in the ice caps and glaciers.

Aside from the inability for life to recover as we know it now.. also Jack thinks evolution can’t work but what would have had to happen to re-make the world after his Global flood.

Another strawman. Evolution, according to your way of thinking, would not be required to repopulate the world.

I repeat again A Global Flood is scientifically impossible.

And I repeat again, you're simply wrong. It happened. Deal with it.

Global Flood = World covered in Water
Global Flooding = Pockets of flooding throughout the world.

These are 2 completely different things. 1 we have evidence for.. the other is a fantasy from the ancient Sumerian Legends.

As was pointed out earlier, and of which you're already well aware, it's not just the ancient Sumerians that have a global flood legend.

I know time is a problem for you Jack..

No it's not.

it is too quick for evolution but too slow for animals post ARK.. you really struggle with some simple concepts don’t you ?

No. Do you?

If the sea level rose a few metres every year it would pose huge problems.

Sure... now.

Especially if people had build permanent structures and docks. Have you seen Venice ?

I've seen pictures. Never been there.

The same as happen today except we have dams etc to control it.

That doesn't answer my question.

Jack sometimes I wonder about you. If glaciers meted the melt would mean a constant overflowing of the rivers.

So, are you saying they haven't melted any?

Over years they would expand and flood the entire valley. If you have cities etc in that Valley it is an immense disaster !

And your point is?
 

NATEDOG

New member
This is a portion of Gilgamesh. It's kind of hard to read, but some of the things we see happening here are some conversations between Gilgamesh and Utanapishtim (the sumerian version of noah)
The gods were angry at man for his deceit and set about to destroy mankind by a flood. Another god however, tips Utanapishtim
to the plot and advises him to craft a boat, and take his kin and gather living beings onto the boat with them....etc.
Nathan



Gilgamesh spoke to Utanapishtim, the Faraway:
"I have been looking at you,
but your appearance is not strange--you are like me!
You yourself are not different--you are like me!
My mind was resolved to fight with you,
(but instead?) my arm lies useless over you.
Tell me, how is it that you stand in the Assembly of the Gods,
and have found life!"
Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying:
"I will reveal to you, Gilgamesh, a thing that is hidden,
a secret of the gods I will tell you!
Shuruppak, a city that you surely know,
situated on the banks of the Euphrates,
that city was very old, and there were gods inside it.
The hearts of the Great Gods moved them to inflict the Flood.
Their Father Anu uttered the oath (of secrecy),
Valiant Enlil was their Adviser,
Ninurta was their Chamberlain,
Ennugi was their Minister of Canals.
Ea, the Clever Prince(?), was under oath with them
so he repeated their talk to the reed house:
'Reed house, reed house! Wall, wall!
O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu:
Tear down the house and build a boat!
Abandon wealth and seek living beings!
Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings!
Make all living beings go up into the boat.
The boat which you are to build,
its dimensions must measure equal to each other:
its length must correspond to its width.
Roof it over like the Apsu.
I understood and spoke to my lord, Ea:
'My lord, thus is the command which you have uttered
I will heed and will do it.
But what shall I answer the city, the populace, and the
Elders!'
Ea spoke, commanding me, his servant:
'You, well then, this is what you must say to them:
"It appears that Enlil is rejecting me
so I cannot reside in your city (?),
nor set foot on Enlil's earth.
I will go down to the Apsu to live with my lord, Ea,
and upon you he will rain down abundance,
a profusion of fowl, myriad(!) fishes.
He will bring to you a harvest of wealth,
in the morning he will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!"'
Just as dawn began to glow
the land assembled around me-
the carpenter carried his hatchet,
the reed worker carried his (flattening) stone,
... the men ...
The child carried the pitch,
the weak brought whatever else was needed.
On the fifth day I laid out her exterior.
It was a field in area,
its walls were each 10 times 12 cubits in height,
the sides of its top were of equal length, 10 times It cubits each.
I laid out its (interior) structure and drew a picture of it (?).
I provided it with six decks,
thus dividing it into seven (levels).
The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments).
I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part.
I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the
bitumen kiln,
three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it,
there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vege-
table) oil,
apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!)
and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored
away.
I butchered oxen for the meat(!),
and day upon day I slaughtered sheep.
I gave the workmen(?) ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were
river water,
so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival.
... and I set my hand to the oiling(!).
The boat was finished by sunset.
The launching was very difficult.
They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back,
until two-thirds of it had gone into the water(?).
Whatever I had I loaded on it:
whatever silver I had 1 loaded on it,
whatever gold I had I loaded on it.
All the living beings that I had I loaded on it,
I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat,
all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I
had go up.
Shamash had set a stated time:
'In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!
Go inside the boat, seal the entry!'
That stated time had arrived.
In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat.
I watched the appearance of the weather--
the weather was frightful to behold!
I went into the boat and sealed the entry.
For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman,
I gave the palace together with its contents.
Just as dawn began to glow
there arose from the horizon a black cloud.
Adad rumbled inside of it,
before him went Shullat and Hanish,
heralds going over mountain and land.
Erragal pulled out the mooring poles,
forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow.
The Anunnaki lifted up the torches,
setting the land ablaze with their flare.
Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens,
and turned to blackness all that had been light.
The... land shattered like a... pot.
All day long the South Wind blew ...,
blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water,
overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow,
they could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the Flood,
and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu.
The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall.
Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth,
the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed:
'The olden days have alas turned to clay,
because I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods!
How could I say evil things in the Assembly of the Gods,
ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people!!
No sooner have I given birth to my dear people
than they fill the sea like so many fish!'
The gods--those of the Anunnaki--were weeping with her,
the gods humbly sat weeping, sobbing with grief(?),
their lips burning, parched with thirst.
Six days and seven nights
came the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land.
When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding,
the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman
writhing (in labor).
The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind (and) flood stopped up.
I looked around all day long--quiet had set in
and all the human beings had turned to clay!
The terrain was as flat as a roof.
I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of
my nose.
I fell to my knees and sat weeping,
tears streaming down the side of my nose.
I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea,
and at twelve leagues there emerged a region (of land).
On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm,
Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed
(a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.
Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place,
and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured
reeds, cedar, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor,
and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.
Just then Beletili arrived.
She lifted up the large flies (beads) which Anu had made for
his enjoyment(!):
'You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli
around my neck,
may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them!
The gods may come to the incense offering,
but Enlil may not come to the incense offering,
because without considering he brought about the Flood
and consigned my people to annihilation.'
Just then Enlil arrived.
He saw the boat and became furious,
he was filled with rage at the Igigi gods:
'Where did a living being escape?
No man was to survive the annihilation!'
Ninurta spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying:
'Who else but Ea could devise such a thing?
It is Ea who knows every machination!'
La spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying:
'It is yours, O Valiant One, who is the Sage of the Gods.
How, how could you bring about a Flood without consideration
Charge the violation to the violator,
charge the offense to the offender,
but be compassionate lest (mankind) be cut off,
be patient lest they be killed.
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that a lion had appeared to diminish the people!
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that a wolf had appeared to diminish the people!
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that famine had occurred to slay the land!
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that (Pestilent) Erra had appeared to ravage the land!
It was not I who revealed the secret of the Great Gods,
I (only) made a dream appear to Atrahasis, and (thus) he
heard the secret of the gods.
Now then! The deliberation should be about him!'
Enlil went up inside the boat
and, grasping my hand, made me go up.
He had my wife go up and kneel by my side.
He touched our forehead and, standing between us, he
blessed us:
'Previously Utanapishtim was a human being.
But now let Utanapishtim and his wife become like us,
the gods!
Let Utanapishtim reside far away, at the Mouth of the Rivers.'
They took us far away and settled us at the Mouth of the Rivers."
"Now then, who will convene the gods on your behalf,
that you may find the life that you are seeking!
Wait! You must not lie down for six days and seven nights."
soon as he sat down (with his head) between his legs
sleep, like a fog, blew upon him.
 

jeremiah

BANNED
Banned
I have always supposed that the mountains at the time of the flood were much lower. Low enough that the great sea trenches which are much deeper than the heights of Everest, were pushed upward, by the power of God then there would be plenty of water to flood the entire earth. I do not know if this is exactly how God did it. But can you conceive in your mind that today, if some force pushed the mountains down to lets say 5000 feet {or 3000' whatever} and some force pushed up all the ocean trenches up to sea level or even much less, that the entire earth would be flooded. Even if you don't believe there is a God, is there enough water currently in the oceans to flood the earth in that scenario?
We all agree that mountain ranges rise and mountains fall and erode. At least that is what the Evolutionists taught me in college.:D Just use a little imagination, to admit it is at least theoretically possible given even natural processes for the plates and faults to shift and cause a disaster of a worldwide flood.
 

NATEDOG

New member
This is a summary of the two tablets proceeding the one I posted.


Gilgamesh allows his life to fall apart; he does not bathe, does not shave, does not take care of himself, not so much out of grief for his friend, but because he now realizes that he too must die and the thought sends him into a panic. He decides that he can't live unless granted eternal life; he decides to undertake the most perilous journey of all: the journey to Utnapishtim and his wife, the only mortals on whom the gods had granted eternal life. Utnapishtim is the Far-Away, living at the mouth of all rivers, at the ends of the world. Utnapishtim was the great king of the world before the Flood and, with his wife, was the only mortal preserved by the gods during the Flood.
After an ominous dream, Gilgamesh sets out. He arrives at Mount Mashu, which guards the rising and the setting of the sun, and encounters two large scorpions who guard the way past Mount Mashu. They try to convince him that his journey is futile and fraught with danger, but still they allow him to pass. Past Mount Mashu is the land of Night, where no light ever appears. Gilgamesh journeys eleven leagues before the light begins to glimmer, after twelve leagues he has emerged into day. He enters into a brilliant garden of gems, where every tree bears precious stones.
Tablet 10
Gilgamesh comes to a tavern by the ocean shore; the tavern is kept by Siduri. Frightened by Gilgamesh's ragged appearance, Siduri locks the tavern door and refuses to let Gilgamesh in. Gilgamesh proves his identity and asks Siduri how to find Utnapishtim. Like the giant scorpions, she tells him that his journey is futile and fraught with dangers. However, she directs him to Urshanabi, the ferryman, who works for Utnapishtim. Gilgamesh approaches Urshanabi with great arrogance and violence and in the process destroys the "stone things" that are somehow critical for the journey to Utnapishtim. When Gilgamesh demands to be taken to Utnapishtim, the ferryman tells him that it is now impossible, since the "stone things" have been destroyed. Nevertheless, he advises Gilgamesh to cut several trees down to serve as punting poles; the waters they are to cross are the Waters of Death, should any mortal touch the waters, that man will instantly die. With the punting poles, Gilgamesh can push the boat and never touch the dangerous waters.
After a long and dangerous journey, Gilgamesh arrives at a shore and encounters another man. He tells this man that he is looking for Utnapishtim and the secret of eternal life; the old man advises Gilgamesh that death is a necessary fact because of the will of the gods; all human effort is only temporary, not permanent.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by jeremiah
I have always supposed that the mountains at the time of the flood were much lower. Low enough that the great sea trenches which are much deeper than the heights of Everest, were pushed upward, by the power of God then there would be plenty of water to flood the entire earth. I do not know if this is exactly how God did it. But can you conceive in your mind that today, if some force pushed the mountains down to lets say 5000 feet {or 3000' whatever} and some force pushed up all the ocean trenches up to sea level or even much less, that the entire earth would be flooded. Even if you don't believe there is a God, is there enough water currently in the oceans to flood the earth in that scenario?

More than enough. If all the land on Earth were entirely flattened out, it would be covered with over 10,000 feet of water.
 

jeremiah

BANNED
Banned
Thanks for posting that NATEDOG;


It is obvious to me which account is true and which only has elements of truth. The main difference is obviously the One true God and the many gods, of the Sumerians.

To ex_ fundy:

Sorry I did not have time to give you my answer concerning the Death of Adam. I have been taught and read from many sources that dying you shall surely die, means that Adam died spiritually, that day, and that physically he also began the procees of his body starting to die that day. The spiritual death of Adam, since he was made in the image of God and was the caretaker of the animals and the earth, affected the animals and they began to die as well. It makes sense to me.

I am very tired, and must go now.:sleep:
 

NATEDOG

New member
What do you mean by all the land on earth flattened out?
I need an illustration. Imagine all the surface of the earth, under the sea and over, is a peace of crinkled paper with "valleys" and "mountains". So you're saying that if it was straightened out their would be 10,000 feet of water covering it?
Or if the entire surface of the earth was reformated into a perfectly smooth, non-contoured surface?
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by NATEDOG
What do you mean by all the land on earth flattened out?
I need an illustration. Imagine all the surface of the earth, under the sea and over, is a peace of crinkled paper with "valleys" and "mountains". So you're saying that if it was straightened out their would be 10,000 feet of water covering it?

Right.

Or if the entire surface of the earth was reformated into a perfectly smooth, non-contoured surface?

No, I mean "flattened out" only on a local level. The world would still be spherical.
 

NATEDOG

New member
It actually makes sense.
The ocean is hmm 3 miles deep on average? It covers 75 percent of the earths surface. If the sea bed were to rise up to current sea level and the mountains were to disappear it would average out to about 10,000 feet of water.
 

attention

New member
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Yes it does.

No, cause you can't arrange the water that exists now in such a way (even if all the polar caps melt) that it can cover all the earth.

And if you want to "sink the mountains" so that you need less water height, this will cause other parts of the earth's surface to rise. Earth tectonics describes that the earth crust are plates that float on fluid magma beneath it. Normal physics laws apply to that.

There is no geologist who can back up your mythological story.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Originally posted by attention
No, cause you can't arrange the water that exists now in such a way (even if all the polar caps melt) that it can cover all the earth.

You could if all the land on Earth had an even elevation. This is a fact. You can deny it all you want, but it's still a fact.

Look, I realize you get a kick out of being contradictory, but I'm getting tired of your antics, and I imagine other people are too.
 

NATEDOG

New member
Attention,
Jack isn't talking about sinking mountains, he's talking about raising ocean floors. if the floors of the ocean and all land above sea level were leveled out to the point that they were even, the surface would be covered by 10,000 feet of water.
 

NATEDOG

New member
If the earth were a perfectly spherical surface with no dips or contours or mountains, the water on earth would be 10,000 feet deep across the face of the earth. However earth isn't perfectly spherical, and its surface isn't even.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top