ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[glorydaz]

Yes. I realized I was a dead man when I heard I was a sinner apart from God. Life, was Jesus Christ as the answer. Did 'hearing' about sin kill me? :nono: It rather let me know I was in death and death trouble already.

Of course by then you were a dead man....a sinner apart from God. And how did you get that way? Dead in trespasses and sins? You walked according to the course of this world, and the "prince of the power of the air"...the god of this world. You became a child of DISOBEDIENCE.

Ephesians 2:2KJV
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:​

By fulfilling the lusts and desires of the flesh and mind. Not because we inherited Adam's sin, but because we succumbed to the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life (just as Adam did in the garden).

Eph. 2:3KJV Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

 

[Lon]

I wouldn't want to even begin to guess what an infant might know. He just got done being fearfully and wonderfully made by our Great God, didn't he?

But why are you requiring more from children than is required of us? If loving our neighbor as ourselves was required for salvation, none would be saved. Looks to me like they have a foot up on us.

Matthew 18:3KJV And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

The foot-up is regarding that which accumulated against us, as well as, I expect, our growing skepticism/suspicion. So yeah, I agree. However, I was convicted of sin and righteousness at a young age. When, being so young, did I incur such sin that I knew I needed a Savior? I know I was spanked at about age 2, remember it about age 3.

 

[Lon]

Of course by then you were a dead man....a sinner apart from God. And how did you get that way? Dead in trespasses and sins? You walked according to the course of this world, and the "prince of the power of the air"...the god of this world. You became a child of DISOBEDIENCE.

Ephesians 2:2KJV
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:​

By fulfilling the lusts and desires of the flesh and mind. Not because we inherited Adam's sin, but because we succumbed to the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life (just as Adam did in the garden).

Eph. 2:3KJV Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

Yes, but at such a tender age (I was seven) how much 'evil' had I done? Where did they start, my terrible two's? How did turning two create the monster I was to become? I don't remember a lot of violent television :think: If I were NOT born wicked, where did it all come from? I don't ever remember the 'lying' lesson. It seemed I was born lying already. I didn't have the 'hit your sibling' activity in pre-school. Where did it come from? Was it my father hitting my mother? *(well, that'd at least explain that one) :think: Where did I get such wickedness at the age of seven, that I knew I needed a Savior?

 

[glorydaz]

I've been reading up on this discussion elsewhere, simply to gather information and be effective in discussion.

The predominant problem with sinless birth is that it tramples scriptures. The discussion in thread has asked for those scriptures.

While some of them have been eschewed as having anything to do with the discussion, I yet believe Psalm 51:1-5 to stand very well on its own premise and counter to the belief that all children are born innocent.

In addition, I've found in reading the following scriptures. For me, at least, they definitively settle the matter for me though I am certain the discussion will continue. Logically, I believe these verses as well as the former, end this debate, at least for me.

1 Corinthians 15:22
Romans 3:10,11
Psalm 58:3
Proverbs 22:15
Genesis 8:21
Psalm 14:2–3


If one insists, after this, that their doctrine is to be held over the orthodox position, I'd encourage a 'thorough' investigation. We all need to stand before our Maker, and give account, thus need to take captive every thought that vies against the throne of God. 2 Corinthians 10:5 In Him -Lon

You know what, Lon? It's very pretentious to suggest such a thing when you give those feeble example of so-called proof-texts. Not a one of them comes close to saying what you claim.

What all believers are required to do if they espouse the doctrine of original sin is accuse God of being unrighteous. Claiming babies are born with sin? No, believers won't have it. That is not the God they know. So, they make up little "extenuating circumstances" rules to explain how God makes allowances for babies. Then they have to try and explain away why Christ, Himself, didn't inherit Adam's sin, so they come up with stories about His not having a human father, and sin is only passed down through the father. Then they have to pretend that it was merely justice for God to inflict Adam's sin on all of mankind even though He expects us to do what He made it impossible for us to do.

There are lots of believers that aren't buying it, Lon, especially since people have had access to the Bible themselves. So, please, stop claiming you have the truth on this matter. The verse you stand on falls the very second it's taken in context....as do the others you post.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, but at such a tender age (I was seven) how much 'evil' had I done? Where did they start, my terrible two's? How did turning two create the monster I was to become? I don't remember a lot of violent television :think: If I were NOT born wicked, where did it all come from? I don't ever remember the 'lying' lesson. It seemed I was born lying already. I didn't have the 'hit your sibling' activity in pre-school. Where did it come from? Was it my father hitting my mother? *(well, that'd at least explain that one) :think: Where did I get such wickedness at the age of seven, that I knew I needed a Savior?

I'll guarantee you it wasn't from Adam. Any 7 yr. old that thinks he is evil has been fed that by those adults in his life. Don't blame that on God, and don't blame it on that little 7 year old boy. :sigh:


We live in a corrupt world of sin...little children often suffer the results of that sin before they even know what is right from wrong. You were told you were wrong. Sad.

 

[glorydaz]

The foot-up is regarding that which accumulated against us, as well as, I expect, our growing skepticism/suspicion. So yeah, I agree. However, I was convicted of sin and righteousness at a young age. When, being so young, did I incur such sin that I knew I needed a Savior? I know I was spanked at about age 2, remember it about age 3.

My sister was molested by my step dad at 8. She was told it was her fault, and she believed it. She spent years believing his lies, but it wasn't her sin...it was his.

 

[Lon]

You know what, Lon? It's very pretentious to suggest such a thing when you give those feeble example of so-called proof-texts. Not a one of them comes close to saying what you claim.

Hence the pretension, I guess. For me? Close the door the rest of the way. Why? Because they seem clear to me. To you? :idunno: nor know why. I don't think it can get any clearer. Because of that, the rest is about how we go different directions and why. I just want to be biblical. I read through Ezekiel as you asked, twice. The innocence is the one whose sins are not counted against him/her.

For a moment, lets look at each verse and what it is saying:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam
Romans 3:10,11 - None righteous. No exceptions that I can see
Psalm 58:3 - It is saying at least the wicked are 'born this way'
Proverbs 22:15 discipline is advocated at an early age because of their condition
Genesis 8:21 Man's heart is evil from childhood
Psalm 14:2–3 No child seeks God

What all believers are required to do if they espouse the doctrine of original sin is accuse God of being unrighteous. Claiming babies are born with sin? No, believers won't have it. That is not the God they know. So, they make up little "extenuating circumstances" rules to explain how God makes allowances for babies. Then they have to try and explain away why Christ, Himself, didn't inherit Adam's sin, so they come up with stories about His not having a human father, and sin is only passed down through the father. Then they have to pretend that it was merely justice for God to inflict Adam's sin on all of mankind even though He expects us to do what He made it impossible for us to do.

There are lots of believers that aren't buying it, Lon, especially since people have had access to the Bible themselves. So, please, stop claiming you have the truth on this matter. The verse you stand on falls the very second it's taken in context....as do the others you post.

It is opposite: All believers but a few, and a few Unit-arians, and all Mormons, believe we are born with the sin condition.

I realize your passion. I also realize there are co-doctrines that about demand it from you and I understand that. As I've gotten older, I about refuse to look passionately when trying to discern scriptures. I used to read verses about loss of my salvation working "out my salvation with fear and trembling." The problem was I was so afraid that everything was true, every reading of scripture pounded home that God would disown me. 1 John 4:18 gave me a new way to read scripture: Not as fear, but as pure love of God and pure love in which He desired me to live.

This same purity may have me misunderstanding the things of God, but done so in confidence 1 Peter 4:8

The short of it is, I believe scripture talks about our condition from birth. I am ever reading your and Jerry's posts however. As I said, I reread your verses twice. I've also reread some of your posts twice too. Don't lose courage. I am committing this thread and us, to Him in prayer and faithful study. -Lon

 

[Lon]

My sister was molested by my step dad at 8. She was told it was her fault, and she believed it. She spent years believing his lies, but it wasn't her sin...it was his.

Totally agree. I pray (just now and in the future) that she comes through the other side, clean and pure as a New-Born-Lamb of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Totally agree. I pray (just now and in the future) that she comes through the other side, clean and pure as a New-Born-Lamb of God.

Yet you accuse her of original sin and claim she is depraved.

 

[glorydaz]

Hence the pretension, I guess. For me? Close the door the rest of the way. Why? Because they seem clear to me. To you? :idunno: nor know why. I don't think it can get any clearer. Because of that, the rest is about how we go different directions and why. I just want to be biblical. I read through Ezekiel as you asked, twice. The innocence is the one whose sins are not counted against him/her.

For a moment, lets look at each verse and what it is saying:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam
Romans 3:10,11 - None righteous. No exceptions that I can see
Psalm 58:3 - It is saying at least the wicked are 'born this way'
Proverbs 22:15 discipline is advocated at an early age because of their condition
Genesis 8:21 Man's heart is evil from childhood
Psalm 14:2–3 No child seeks God


It is opposite: All believers but a few, and a few Unit-arians, and all Mormons, believe we are born with the sin condition.

I realize your passion. I also realize there are co-doctrines that about demand it from you and I understand that. As I've gotten older, I about refuse to look passionately when trying to discern scriptures. I used to read verses about loss of my salvation working "out my salvation with fear and trembling." The problem was I was so afraid that everything was true, every reading of scripture pounded home that God would disown me. 1 John 4:18 gave me a new way to read scripture: Not as fear, but as pure love of God and pure love in which He desired me to live.

This same purity may have me misunderstanding the things of God, but done so in confidence 1 Peter 4:8

The short of it is, I believe scripture talks about our condition from birth. I am ever reading your and Jerry's posts however. As I said, I reread your verses twice. I've also reread some of your posts twice too. Don't lose courage. I am committing this thread and us, to Him in prayer and faithful study. -Lon

I won't lose courage. I'm not the one who questions the righteousness of God. I'll try to remain understanding of your own particular doctrines without slandering you in the process.

 

[Lon]

I'll guarantee you it wasn't from Adam. Any 7 yr. old that thinks he is evil has been fed that by those adults in his life. Don't blame that on God, and don't blame it on that little 7 year old boy. :sigh:


We live in a corrupt world of sin...little children often suffer the results of that sin before they even know what is right from wrong. You were told you were wrong. Sad.

For me, and different than what your sister went through (and I'm sorry). I was simply convinced I needed a Savior. I knew beyond doubt I had sinned. I heard what Jesus did, why He did it, and what I needed. The Sunday School teacher asked me to come back the next week, it was time for church, and I demanded/pleaded fervently that 'today' I heard His voice. I wanted Him as much as for being His, as distancing from a sinful past, and I knew I had one. I was convinced of sin and righteousness at that age. I knew it was all true, and my need was accurately given. Further, I was the one demanding/pleading for the Savior that day. It was me, that seven year old kid. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

For me, and different than what your sister went through (and I'm sorry). I was simply convinced I needed a Savior. I knew beyond doubt I had sinned. I heard what Jesus did, why He did it, and what I needed. The Sunday School teacher asked me to come back the next week, it was time for church, and I demanded/pleaded fervently that 'today' I heard His voice. I wanted Him as much as for being His, as distancing from a sinful past, and I knew I had one. I was convinced of sin and righteousness at that age. I knew it was all true, and my need was accurately given. Further, I was the one demanding/pleading for the Savior that day. It was me, that seven year old kid. -Lon

Yes, you certainly needed someone to love you and accept you for who you were. I'm not convinced a seven year old has reached the age of accountability, and hope you were baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ at some later date.

 

[Lon]

Yes, you certainly needed someone to love you and accept you for who you were. I'm not convinced a seven year old has reached the age of accountability, and hope you were baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ at some later date.

As a child, I was precocious and understood a lot. I, like your sister, needed Jesus, just to pull me out of a desperate situation. I agree the need was thrust upon me, but I needed Jesus desperately. I did know, however, I needed forgiveness. I don't think I needed my sins to be murder or adultery, to know I needed a Savior. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Yet you accuse her of original sin and claim she is depraved.

Such does not deserve sexual abuse. I'm not saying my sin nature as a child had me deserving death, just dying as a result of Adam.

 

[glorydaz]

For a moment, lets look at each verse and what it is saying:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam

Adam was made of the dust of the ground and returned to it, as all men do. I don't think "inherited" would be the right word. Of course that verse is talking about our resurrected bodies, which all me men will receive.

Romans 3:10 - None righteous. No exceptions that I can see

You would see if you would actually read the Psalm which Paul was quoting. Clearly, Paul is talking about the FOOL who denies there is a God. Don't you see there are "righteous" down there at the bottom of the quote?

Psalm 14:1-5KJV
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.​

They are talking about these folks. Those, when they knew God, ......their foolish heart was darkened....became fools. Notice how they changed the NATURAL use...went against NATURE with their "vile affections". They didn't inherit any of this from Adam, which is why God says they have no excuse.

Romans 1:21-26KJV Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

I will address the other verses, if I see you are actually addressing these. @Lon

 

[Nick M]

Paul says those who have died have been freed from sin. But at the same time, he tells us that God is not imputing our sin to us. He has offered reconciliation. When you witness, you don't need to drive home how bad we really are. You only need to point out that justice was already served. He took your punishment for you. Some people hate it. Shake your sandals and move on.

 

[glorydaz]

Such does not deserve sexual abuse. I'm not saying my sin nature as a child had me deserving death, just dying as a result of Adam.

That doesn't make any sense, Lon. Did you deserve to have Adam's sin counted against you as a baby, or a 7 yr. old boy? You seem to think God will make some special provision for children, but you haven't shown where that might be in your original sin doctrine.

 

[Lon]

Adam was made of the dust of the ground and returned to it, as all men do. I don't think "inherited" would be the right word. Of course that verse is talking about our resurrected bodies, which all me men will receive.

"All men" or "All in Christ (only those in Christ)?" There are two camps on this, that I've seen, those who believe there is a resurrection of all, and those who read this verse and others as "All in Christ" rather than all men. I tend to lean toward the latter in my theology because to me, it makes the most sense.

You would see if you would actually read the Psalm which Paul was quoting. Clearly, Paul is talking about the FOOL who denies there is a God. Don't you see there are "righteous" down there at the bottom of the quote?

Romans 3:9 "all alike, under the power of sin..."

Psalm 14:1-5KJV
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

There is legitimacy of going to the text in question, but we also must understand the context and proof of Paul's for quoting it. Romans 3:9,10 is the context and thus he is using the quote from Psalm to bolster his point, not about the 'fool' but about both Jews and gentiles, both together as he says "....[Jew and gentile] alike, under the power of sin..." Somehow, we didn't just sin, but were under its very power, all of us.​

They are talking about these folks. Those, when they knew God, ......their foolish heart was darkened....became fools. Notice how they changed the NATURAL use...went against NATURE with their "vile affections". They didn't inherit any of this from Adam, which is why God says they have no excuse.

In the full context, but Paul is talking specifically about Jews and Gentiles, both, under the power of sin specifically whether they know the Law or not. His argument is that there is to be no consideration of Jew/gentile distinctions: We all need a Savior, no exceptions. Getting caught up with the "fool" we'd still be left with the same conclusion: Savior, no exceptions.

Romans 1:21-26KJV Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

I will address the other verses, if I see you are actually addressing these. @Lon

Paul goes on from Romans 3:19-31 to discuss no advantage in the law, but a mutual advantage to being in Christ, specifically addressing that we all, no matter who we are, Jews, Gentiles, [or fools]: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the only answer to a people jointly condemned by sin, in death. As a child, it was when I heard about sin, and what it was, that I knew I was a sinner. Prior? I knew I'd disobeyed my parents, but the day I heard about sin against God and that the Lord Jesus Christ's work reconciled, I called upon Him that day, knowing full well, the consequence of sin as well as a need for a Savior. I was so convicted of it, at age seven, that I did not allow my Sunday School teacher to leave it off for a week. "Today" in June 14, 1970, I heard his voice. Hebrews 3:7,15

 

[Lon]

That doesn't make any sense, Lon. Did you deserve to have Adam's sin counted against you as a baby, or a 7 yr. old boy? You seem to think God will make some special provision for children, but you haven't shown where that might be in your original sin doctrine.

1) 'deserve' no. This goes back to legal vs. and/or in addition to born this way. We do, by our own sin, deserve death, lest Christ's death become ineffectual. We cannot argue against the one without endangering our full dependence upon the other. This is partly why sinless doctrine was eschewed, I believe. Anything that does harm to our Lord Jesus' sacrifice and we might as well have all become Jews.
2) Special provision: Matthew 19¹⁴ Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” ¹⁵ When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

How? I don't know. "Because they are without sin" doesn't tell me how, or what happens. I simply trust Him, whether I believe in Original sin or sinless birth, it doesn't make a bit of difference regarding my trust of Him in the matter. Perhaps too, the women who I attributed to Pelagian views, would just have likely fit into such a context.

I apologize for the guilty-by-association both in this, and for saying there are no Pelagians. The 'association' wasn't intentional, and somewhat thrust upon me, but it isn't arguing fairly and I ask for forgiveness for the less than intentional (some intention, but misguided and inept) blunder.
It doesn't matter who is or isn't, but if it is true or not. You are correct to call me on this and I relent.


To you and the thread, my apologies and begging your pardon. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Let's end this:

Two questions:

1) John 14:6 Was the Lord Jesus Christ speaking truthfully?
2) Killing any infant, guarantees them eternal life because they are sinless: true/false?

Imho, this ends the discussion and reduces the latter to heresy lest I call my Lord, God and Savior, a liar. /thread

Question # 3: who did you decide has the truth?