ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[way 2 go]

There are all kinds of questions and problems that arise from Sinless-birth doctrine. Why are babies, if unaffected by sin, born with disability?

Adam died the day he ate from the tree then physically died 930 years later .

spiritually alive then spiritually dead

we inherited sinful flesh from Adam and are bodies still die

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. 2 Points, you are correct, it is a rabbit trail and that it isn't fair to use against you. Simply realize the contact, prior to you, with those who believe like this were 'mental patients.' I recant however, because I see what you mean: It is guilty by association, not guilt by necessity.

Nope, I won't "realize" any such thing. :chuckle:

There were plenty of people who think like me who were not mental patients. Like Ezekiel for example. Or this...

Psalm 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.​

As I said, I don't believe it applies directly, because the incarnation is like nothing we had ever seen, or will see again, so its considerations 'possibly' could shed light on our own condition, but such would be extrapolation or inference. David said he was conceived in sin.

There are all kinds of questions and problems that arise from Sinless-birth doctrine. Why are babies, if unaffected by sin, born with disability? Especially if a poor action by the parent? Why does God not rip them from our hands, at birth? Wouldn't doing so with Adam and Eve have been the cure, instead of a need for Christ? If so, why wasn't that the solution? I was just talking to my oldest. She said, as much as we set a good example for her, she still struggled with things we never portrayed for her. Wouldn't a 'less' sinful surrounding have produced 'less' sin in her, instead of more?

We live in a corrupt world of sin. All of creation is groaning. Of course we have disease...all these are results of sin coming into the world. The ground itself is cursed because of sin.

As far as the incarnation goes, it is clear that Jesus was fully man...not the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham. He suffered being tempted, just as we are. We have the same nature. Was He born sinless? Then we were too. If not, He was not made "like unto his brethren" as the Scripture tells us.

Heb. 2:16-18KJV For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

David used a couplet for emphasis: Conceived in sin, born in iniquity. He wasn't talking of his mother's sin. She was faithful. He wasn't talking about 'sinning' but rather his 'condition.'

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).​

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason why what is said here should not be understood literally:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

How could someone be made spiritually dead and at the same time be be wonderfully made?

 

[way 2 go]

Nope, I won't "realize" any such thing. :chuckle:

There were plenty of people who think like me who were not mental patients. Like Ezekiel for example. Or this...

Psalm 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.​

:up:

 

[glorydaz]

I did. One of us thinks we are sinners because we sin, the other of us thinks we sin (act according to our nature) because we are sinners, therefore we read the verse as we see it. It should become obvious that I read this verse understanding we are born with the condition. Psalm 51:5; 58:3 Genesis 8:21 Job 14:4;15:14-16 John 3:6 Ephesians 2:3

Now now...you're tossing out verses without any support. Those verses from Job, for instance. Those in chapter 15 were spoken by Eliphaz who was rebuked by God at the end of those speeches. From what I can see, Lon, you're reading your own understanding in all of them. That's why we should discuss one or two verses at a time.

 

[glorydaz]

No Nang... I am accountable for my freewill. I also place my freewill in Jesus. You are sincerely confused. I'm mad at you, but I won't vent or whine to anyone.

I place everything I have in Jesus and if that is vain philosophy ... then something is wrong with your heart! I call Jesus my liberation and Hope... if this is vain philosophy... then again... IDK.

He knows me like no other and loves me for who I am... I'm sincerely perplexed by your stances!

Don't worry about Nang. She thinks way too highly of herself.

 

[Lon]

:chuckle:
what would the will of the father be for an infant?

Can an infant Love the Lord their God with all their Heart Soul Mind and Strength as scripture/Jesus commands? How about love neighbor as self? You are correct, but it was 'my' question. Are they born able? :nono: That's why the 'omit' the commands. Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Are children's minds on the Spirit? :nono:

you are reading into it

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

any other verse?

1) Psalm 51:1-5 is enough, there is no other way to read it when you come to verse 5 2) yes, lots all through the thread: John 15:5 Ephesians 2:3,12 Psalm 51:5 Romans 7:14 Romans 5:12-21 Romans 5:18 John 3:16 John 3:18 Matthew 19:14

spiritually alive then spiritually dead.

I was spanked at an early age. You?

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

]really an appeal to authority argument

Not just authority. You have Mormons and some few Unitarians on your side. That's it (well almost).

no I don't remember the Princess Bride

but it sounds like spiritually dead

Yes. I realized I was a dead man when I heard I was a sinner apart from God. Life, was Jesus Christ as the answer. Did 'hearing' about sin kill me? :nono: It rather let me know I was in death and death trouble already.

1.you don't start out spiritually dead 2. you have not shown what sins infants commit.
Romans 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

By default, a child's mind is on? On the former, I did answer. I said they do not "Love the Lord their God with their whole hearts, minds, or strengths." Nor their 'neighbor as themselves.'

assume much ?
not at all , where did you get that idea ?

Your idea. Romans is a treatise of sin, the Law, and the need for Christ. If I simply stop Paul, no sin. Don't have to worry about it. Burn the bibles, done, right? You are saying that the Law killed. I disagreed, you reasserted, this is where that kind of thinking leads.

born spiritually alive then spiritually dead is my point.
I have not said how or when you become spiritually dead ,

It is scripturally against God. Against the Law, against a need for a Savior.

Are you suggesting that God will be unfair and send someone who has never sinned to eternal conscious torment

:nono:

you don't get that from this verse Paul said he was alive and then he died.
you say no , not true.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

We've been over some of this already. Here is more: Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Only those of the Spirit can please God. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Spoiler

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
So, Paul, under the law was bound to the Law, and it showed him death because that is the requirement of death. Would he have died anyway? Yes, but while he was under the law, until it became apparent, he thought he would have life.
Romans 7:6 We are now released from the Law (all Jews, and even the gentiles who are a law until themselves, also having broken those).
Romans 7:7 "I would not have known sin..." Known, not 'would have been without it'
Then Romans 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
Romans 7:14 The law is spiritual, I am not. His condition existed whether he knew of it or not.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
-All of creation, including babies, and baby animals.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[glorydaz]

God has the sovereign power to save fetuses in the womb, and babies in infancy, according to His grace alone. The Reformed view is that Unconditional Election is active and effective in the womb as well as in the world at large.

Just as God is able to save mentally incompetents and coma patients . . . salvation is all from His sovereign will, choice, power, and grace.

No such thing necessary as "an age of accountability" or mental acumen to be saved. Romans 9:15-16

Not with your theology, that's for sure. God picks and chooses regardless of what man does. :nono:

 

[Lon]

Nope, I won't "realize" any such thing. :chuckle:

Rather, 'how' it came up in conversation. I agree it was neither here nor there, just 'why' is was said.

There were plenty of people who think like me who were not mental patients. Like Ezekiel for example. Or this...

Psalm 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.​

That doesn't mean sinless, nor does anything in Ezekiel that I've noticed.

We live in a corrupt world of sin. All of creation is groaning. Of course we have disease...all these are results of sin coming into the world. The ground itself is cursed because of sin.

Yes, but babies are part of that. They are born in the corruption. I remember a spanking at 3. My brother at two. I don't believe toddlers go to hell either.

As far as the incarnation goes, it is clear that Jesus was fully man...not the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham. He suffered being tempted, just as we are. We have the same nature. Was He born sinless? Then we were too. If not, He was not made "like unto his brethren" as the Scripture tells us.

Heb. 2:16-18KJV For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

Still think this piece needs its own thread. It isn't going to get its deserve here and it is about Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Lon]

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).​

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason why what is said here should not be understood literally:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

How could someone be made spiritually dead and at the same time be be wonderfully made?

Because even Charles Manson who is as wicked as all get out, has two eyes, opposable thumbs etc. Every being on the planet is wonderfully incredibly made.

 

[Lon]

Night folks, this thread is going for the marathon and I'm off. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

No, rather he was 'ignorantly' alive, is his argument. "How can they believe without a message?" Romans 10:14-21 People don't know they need the Lord Jesus Christ until they know Who He is and what He did.

Paul was speaking of coveting (commandment). He wasn't speaking of the Gospel, but he was talking about the conviction of sin...which is when the law slew him. Just like Tam was talking about when the realization came to Adam that he had sinned.

Paul's purpose in that chapter (Romans 7) was explaining what the law could and could not do.

 

[glorydaz]

Night folks, this thread is going for the marathon and I'm off. -Lon

Well, come back. We aren't done with you yet. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Because even Charles Manson who is as wicked as all get out, has two eyes, opposable thumbs etc. Every being on the planet is wonderfully incredibly made.

Even Manson was born wonderfully made...... Then he started sinning.

 

[glorydaz]

Rather, 'how' it came up in conversation. I agree it was neither here nor there, just 'why' is was said.

That doesn't mean sinless, nor does anything in Ezekiel that I've noticed.

Just take the time to read Ezek. 18:20-32KJV. Read it with an open mind. Perhaps you'll notice something this time.

Yes, but babies are part of that. They are born in the corruption. I remember a spanking at 3. My brother at two. I don't believe toddlers go to hell either.

They may be born into a corrupt world, but they have been formed in their mother's womb as gifts from our Holy and Righteous God.

Psalm 127:3-5KJV Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.​

Still think this piece needs its own thread. It isn't going to get its deserve here and it is about Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't see how we can discuss this topic without the proof we have in Christ's humanity....his human nature.

 

[glorydaz]

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:5).​

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason why what is said here should not be understood literally:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

How could someone be made spiritually dead and at the same time be be wonderfully made?

:first:

 

[glorydaz]

No, and no.

He delights in the law after the inward man.

In his mind.

In theory...

Til push comes to shove, and it's time to walk in obedience, and he finds that as wonderful as said law sounded in theory (spiritual/in his mind), when it comes time to get himself down to the gym, well, that's another matter - "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..."

At which point he finds - I was alive once - oh I imagined I would never do this, oh, I would do this instead - boy am I alive in theory - look at me fly, watch me....crash an burn, lol.

He is addressing that to those who would put themselves and or others, back under the law's endless "but I already made the donuts!"

(Remember that TV commercial of that old Dunkin Donuts guy burning the midnight oil on both ends so bad that he ends up running into a part of himself coming to work, as he is leaving from work, lol)

O wretched man...

Road runner, he'll get you; fore your through...

He never does; does he - all his great ideas about what he'll do just right this next time... end up in - BOOM! :chuckle:

That post doesn't make a bit of sense. Looks like you're just disagreeing to be disagreeable. It worked.

 

[glorydaz]

"Poetic-License?"

Oops . . What came of the MAD insistence on literalistic interpretation only?

Funny how it fades in and out according to occasional debate needs . . .

Guess you missed what was actually being said by those from Mad. Nothing new there, though. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

David was in Mary's lineage but David was not Jesus' father.

And do you deny the virginity of Mary, too?

Might as well, you deny Romans 1:3KJV.

 

[glorydaz]

Christ in the flesh doctrine is often sticky, and needs careful precision. Christadelphians believe the Son had a sin nature, but did not sin. Scripture says that He was tempted in every way that we are. In between there somewhere is a different discussion than this particular but 'may' have carry overs. I'm not sure what they would be, but the discussion of Christ's nature always deserves its own thread. David used a couplet for emphasis: Conceived in sin, born in iniquity. He wasn't talking of his mother's sin. She was faithful. He wasn't talking about 'sinning' but rather his 'condition.' Ephesians 2:3 says 'by nature' we are children of wrath at birth.

Are you telling me his mother had no sin? Even at her age? Sin entered the world, and all men sin, so how did she avoid being sinful? You sure put a lot of faith in that one verse that doesn't even make sense the way you're reading it. You won't even address the fact that he was over-wrought with guilt and was undoubtedly using hyperbole....as we all do when we're upset. "I never do anything right" or "I'm the chiefest of sinners". I think you are reading too much into that verse. Compare...

Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.​

It's sad that you seem reluctant to discuss something so relevant to this topic as Christ in the flesh. Don't be afraid. That's the problem with all these old proclamations from the past. It's as if the church proclamations are truth instead of the scripture itself, and which church would that be? Jesus is either fully man with a human nature or He isn't.