That is the only thing that statement is getting at, his nature. Because he did change. He became flesh, he died, he was raised up into a glorified body. His nature during all was only righteous. He always abhors evil. etc etc.
ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
That is the only thing that statement is getting at, his nature. Because he did change. He became flesh, he died, he was raised up into a glorified body. His nature during all was only righteous. He always abhors evil. etc etc.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course the LORD treats all men the same way. Adam did not die spiritually until he sinned and therefore no one is dead spiritually until they sin. In order for all to die spiritually all must first be alive spiritually.
The only way that could possible happen is because all emerge from the womb spiritually alive.
Thanks for reminding us that the LORD is no respecter of persons.
musterion
Well-known member
Crucible?
Shasta
Well-known member
I understand the idea. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make you informed and them ignorant.
Shasta
Well-known member
Before I start with those other matters let us look at this. To be clear, you are saying that righteous individuals like Abraham were born again by the Spirit during the time they were on earth.
If this is what you are saying what is the textual basis for such a claim?
Shasta
Well-known member
That is awesome! I hope your joking.
Of course and the fact that I am grilling today is completely irrelevant.
Not me, but it has nothing to do with the doctrine of original sin. It's a rabbit trail.
It's throwing a wrench in your argument.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to the Lord Jesus no one will enter the kingdom unless they are born again. The Scriptures reveal that Abraham will indeed enter the kingdom so common sense dictates that he was born again.
In fact, while Abraham walked the earth he received the imputed righteousness which is of God (Ro.4:3) so it is ridiculous to imagine that he remained dead spiritually at that time.
Or perhaps you want to argue that Abraham was righteous in the eyes of the LORD at the same time when he was dead spiritually?
Shasta
Well-known member
So there is no textual evidence in the OT that anyone was born again by the Spirit. You have just assumed that because it seems to you like it ought to have been that way.
Your assumption then is that everyone who would enter the Kingdom in the future must have been ready to do so during their lifetime on earth...but the scriptures say many looked to future realities they did not experience:
13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth (Hebrews 11:13).
Another assumption you are making is that Abraham walked with God in the exact way as a New Testament believer. Evidently the gift of the Spirit to believers was not a direct result of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. Rather, the Spirit had always been available for anyone who was righteous enough to walk with God even without their first having to be made clean through the blood of the Lamb.
When you speak of "imputed righteousness" it sounds like modern "justification theology?" Isn't that scripture just saying God saw Abraham's faith as a good thing? Also, Abraham had obedient faith. That is what James pointed out.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You wish.
I am a rabid dog when it come to any form of works intertwined with salvation and I am "merciless" at identifying people who utilize Christ's imputed Righteousness as a tool to hide the fact that we all "sin". I forever acknowledge the trade and know that Jesus declares me "sinless" by faith and the removal of the law from my life.
Well... Oats... I can't disagree with a word you have written here and find it edifying on a massive level.
All of Christ's Love, Grace and Guidence in all of your life, studies and relationships!
All gratitude for your sincerity,
- EE
And oh what a Perfect, Loving, Just, Merciful... insert a trillion descriptive words of wonder... Nature He Has!
glorydaz
Well-known member
I wasn't referring to where we disagree. I was talking about your "speculations" of what Jerry might claim next. It was those that made you look ignorant.
How could it not be! Musty... you're a blood hound! :thumb:
Shasta
Well-known member
I think some of his premises inevitably lead to conclusions that he himself would probably not agree with. Taking a premise to its logical conclusion is one way of testing the validity of the premise. Many times people have tested my beliefs this way and, when they do, I try to answer as best I can. I have been having extensive discussions with Jerry and am not completely in the dark about what he will say. If he disagrees he is capable of explaining himself
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes, I know what you think that means. It's actually talking about how even the angels are subject to God's judgment. Do you think no angels rebelled before they saw those beauties on earth? Sorry, that's just conjecture....nothing more.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes he can, and I can point out when I see you making assumptions before you even understand what he's saying. For instance, he asked you if you knew the difference between being spiritually alive and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I thought that was the perfect opportunity for you to respond to what he was actually saying, but you appeared to ignore it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
People were being made alive spiritually at the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth, as witnessed by His words here:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Those who heard and believed His words received eternal life the moment when they believed and they were passed from death unto life (Jn.5:24). And they were made alive by the Spirit. The promise was realized at the time when a person believed His words. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.
Are you so uninformed that you do not even realize that men are "born of God" when they believe?:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
it is those who believe God who are born again. And Paul makes it plain that Abraham believed God:
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:3-50.
According to your ideas even though Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness he remained dead spiritually. Instead of accepting this truth you say this about Abraham:
No, that is not what the Scriptures are saying. Have you never read the following words of Paul in regard to Abraham's imputed righteousness?:
"And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (Ro.4:22-25).
Does that not "sound" like modern "justification theology"? Of course it is!
But according to your ideas Abraham received the imputed righteousness which is of God but he remained spiritually dead!