ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Nang]

All men have the same nature that Adam had when he was created. Here we see how that is described:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

This is the way that Job says that he was made:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

When the LORD breathed into Adam he received spiritual life. So when He breathed into Job he also received spiritual life, especially since the "spirit" of God made him. But you say that when the LORD breathed into Job he did not receive spiritual life even though the spirit of God made him.



I have already explained to you that man corrupts himself. And being corrupted means going from a state which is good to one which is bad. So before a man corrupts himself he is in a state of being very good, just like Adam was before he sinned (Gen.1:31). So at the time a person is conceived his heart can only be described as being very good.



Where in the Bible does it EVER say that Adam is the federal head of mankind?

Romans 5:12-21; I Corinthians 15:22,45-49

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry has Adam sinning with no repercussions on the rest of humanity in contradiction to Paul.

That is not true. I have explained how Adam's sin was responsible for the death of mankind. Again, let's begin with this verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What that verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This principle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death.

 

[glorydaz]

Good post.

Jerry has Adam sinning with no repercussions on the rest of humanity in contradiction to Paul.

Paul tells us the repercussions....sin entered the world.

Not a peep about sin entering mankind.

Why does Genesis not just simply state that Adam sinned instead of going into such detail?

It does simply state that. What it doesn't state is that Adam's sin will be passed down to his descendants. It's not even listed as part of the curse. It's conspicuous by it's absence.

And why does Paul go into such detail to describe Christ as the second Adam?

If Adam's sin was only applicable to him, why bother?

It wasn't sin Paul was speaking of when he was talking about the second man (the Last Adam).

He was talking about how the first man was of the earth with a natural body of flesh, and how the second man was heavenly with a spiritual body.

1 Cor. 15:20-22 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

What I find amazing is this entire chapter is ignored because people are hung up over this idea of sin being "imputed" to us that they don't see what is actually being said. The entire focus is on Christ's resurrection from the dead....the firstfruits of those who sleep (die physically).

We are IN Adam because we have a body of flesh..of the dust, and when we die, we will be resurrected (as the Last Adam was) and be given a spiritual body. It's such a shame that this incredible truth is being lost to falsely claim that Adam's sin has been passed to us. :sigh:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The difference? I was expressing my hate of a doctrine.

Yep.

 

[dodge]

There is POWER in the Gospel. It's hearing it that gives us life. According to you there is no Power in the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Folks do not hear the Gospel and respond to the truth unless:


Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Folks do not hear the Gospel and respond to the truth unless:

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn.12:32).​

 

[dodge]

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn.12:32).​

True, sadly many reject and deny the call !

 

[Iconoclast85]

Save the labels, Lon. I'm not buying your definitions. We do need a Saviour because we live in a world of sin, and we all eventually sin....as soon as we know to choose good and refuse evil, we become guilty of our sins. But, babies have not sinned.

Isaiah 7:16KJV For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

It can't be any clearer than it is here.

Ezek. 18:20KJV The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

When we examine the Scriptures we can see that men die spiritually because of their own sin and not because Adam's death in sin is conveyed to all men:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

All sinned and died in Adam.Romans 3 :23
All sinned at one point in time.....the fall.

 

[glorydaz]

All sinned and died in Adam.Romans 3 :23
All sinned at one point in time.....the fall.

The only "in Adam" you'll find in scripture is referring to Adam being a man of flesh...earthly.

Just as Adam returned to the dust of the ground, The Lord returned to heaven. This chapter is talking about physical death and physical resurrection. Why people read sin into a chapter that speaks of our resurrection bodies, I will never know.

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

 

[Iconoclast85]

Save the labels, Lon. I'm not buying your definitions. We do need a Saviour because we live in a world of sin, and we all eventually sin....as soon as we know to choose good and refuse evil, we become guilty of our sins. But, babies have not sinned.

Isaiah 7:16KJV For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

It can't be any clearer than it is here.

Ezek. 18:20KJV The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

When we examine the Scriptures we can see that men die spiritually because of their own sin and not because Adam's death in sin is conveyed to all men:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

The only "in Adam" you'll find in scripture is referring to Adam being a man of flesh...earthly.

Just as Adam returned to the dust of the ground, The Lord returned to heaven. This chapter is talking about physical death and physical resurrection. Why people read sin into a chapter that speaks of our resurrection bodies, I will never know.

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

I spoke of Romans 3:23....All sinned....at one point in time.
The aorist tense let's us know All sinned In Adam in the fall.

 

[glorydaz]

I spoke of Romans 3:23....All sinned....at one point in time.
The aorist tense let's us know All sinned In Adam in the fall.

Nope, you add "in Adam" because it's a "proof text" that was taken out of a chapter that has nothing to do with sin. Talk about a long long reach. :nono:

 

[Wick Stick]

What is wrong with this thread? There are multiple quotes from others... but those original posts are nowhere to be found! Hard to follow...

 

[Iconoclast85]

Nope, you add "in Adam" because it's a "proof text" that was taken out of a chapter that has nothing to do with sin. Talk about a long long reach. :nono:

The text says....all sinned.
You say it has nothing to do with sin???

 

[glorydaz]

The text says....all sinned.
You say it has nothing to do with sin???

What you won't find are the words "in Adam" and "all sinned" anywhere together. You'll find the words "in Adam" here....speaking of physical death (not sin).

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

You just added that "in Adam" to "all sinned" because that's what you've been told. The fact that all men sin has nothing to do with our being "IN ADAM", but with our being in this corrupt world where satan rules. We aren't born with Adam's sin....we are born with an earthly body of flesh.

 

[Iconoclast85]

All Sinned....would include Adam.....and the whole human race....there was never another time where all sinned at one point in time....

The entrance of sin into the human race came through Adam’s willful disobedience to the explicit commandment of God (Gen. 2:16–17; 3:1–7; Rom. 5:12; 3:23).1230 The human race apostatized from God in Adam as their representative head.
1228 The context of Isaiah 14 (v. 4ff) refers this statement to “the king of Babylon,” evidently addressing Satan through this king. 1229 “...from the beginning...” must refer to the temptation and subsequent fall of Adam through the temptation of the devil through the serpent. 1230 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event or point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, by nature and by personal activity

THE IMPUTATION OF ADAM’S SIN AND ITS CONSEQUENCES
Adam did not merely sin as an individual, but as the federal head and representative of the human race.408 Thus, the sin of Adam—original sin—was imputed to all his posterity. Even if a person could begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin—even if this were possible—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of original sin and the inescapable inheritance of a corrupted or sinful nature. The condemnation, guilt, polluting reality and power of sin are thus inescapable. Sin permeated the entire human race and immediately began to exercise its deceptive, controlling and perverting influence upon and within the human personality. Every human being is thus a sinner from conception—a sinner by imputation [original sin or the imputation of Adam’s sin], a sinner by nature [the inherited sinful nature of fallen Adam], and a sinner by choice and practice [the reality and expression of personal sin] (Rom. 5:12; Gen. 5:3; Psa. 51:5; Psa. 58:3; Eccl. 7:20; Rom. 1:18–32; Rom. 3:9–18).

 

[glorydaz]

All Sinned....would include Adam.....and the whole human race....there was never another time where all sinned at one point in time....

The entrance of sin into the human race came through Adam’s willful disobedience to the explicit commandment of God (Gen. 2:16–17; 3:1–7; Rom. 5:12; 3:23).1230 The human race apostatized from God in Adam as their representative head.
1228 The context of Isaiah 14 (v. 4ff) refers this statement to “the king of Babylon,” evidently addressing Satan through this king. 1229 “...from the beginning...” must refer to the temptation and subsequent fall of Adam through the temptation of the devil through the serpent. 1230 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event or point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, by nature and by personal activity

Well, I can see you can copy and paste. I can also see you can't address the scripture you have been given.

 

[intojoy]

Well, I can see you can copy and paste. I can also see you can't address the scripture you have been given.

Try reading what was copied what was pasted


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thus, the sin of Adam—original sin—was imputed to all his posterity.

Then why do his descendants come into the world spiritually alive? When we examine the book of Job we can see that people are created spiritually alive. Elihu told Job this about how he was made:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

Job certainly understood that it is the spirit of God which was breathed into him by the Almighty:

"As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job.27:3).​

That is referring to the same spiritual life which was breathed into the nostrils of Adam when he was created:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

Even though the spirit of God gives men life and the spirit of God makes them some people will continue to argue that all of Adam's descendants emerge from the womb spiritually dead!

That is ludicrous!

 

[dodge]

Jerry Shugart;4989658]Then why do his descendants come into the world spiritually alive? When we examine the book of Job we can see that people are created spiritually alive. Elihu told Job this about how he was made:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

Job is talking about PHYSICAL life not spiritual life.

Psa 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job certainly understood that it is the spirit of God which was breathed into him by the Almighty:

"As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job.27:3).​

Breathing and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is NOT the same thing !

That is referring to the same spiritual life which was breathed into the nostrils of Adam when he was created:

​

I believe scripture says God breathed into their nostrils and the man became a living soul !

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"

(Gen.2:7).

Breathing and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is NOT the same thing

Even though the spirit of God gives men life and the spirit of God makes them some people will continue to argue that all of Adam's descendants emerge from the womb spiritually dead!

Probably because that is what the scriptures teach !

That is ludicrous!

I guess so if you consider the scripture ludicrous.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Job is talking about PHYSICAL life not spiritual life.

Let us look at what Job said:

"As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job.27:3).
​

According to Job the SPIRIT of God is in his nostrils but you say that he did not receive spiritual life! Elihu told Job this about how he was made:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

Even though Elihu said that the spirit of God made him you say that he was born spiritually dead!

Even though Job said that the spirit of God is in his nostrils you say that he was born spiritually dead!