glorydaz
Well-known member
Nang has a hard time when someone doesn't buy her Tulips.
I'm feeling like the JW's are coming after me. Seriously.
ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
Nang has a hard time when someone doesn't buy her Tulips.
I'm feeling like the JW's are coming after me. Seriously.
glorydaz
Well-known member
It's always good to see a brother. Thanks for stopping by.
musterion
Well-known member
That might have been Mr. Nang posting. Either way, that was seriously out of line.
It's what it boils down to when discussing with some Calvinists.
You bring your bible to read and study.
They bring their links and commentaries to read and study.
Your method is the purer one, GD.
Me too.
I prefer to compare scripture with scripture, as you do.
It's a joy to study with both of you.
My-My... what "High Handed" words to generate. And... this... is... why... YOU FAIL!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is believing which brings life and that truth is contrary to the Calvinist's idea that life precedes believing:
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
The Calvinist's cannot even understand the most elementary things revealed about salvation.
dodge
New member
lol, why would a spiritually live person need to be "born again " ? No Jerry it is YOU that tries to understand and reason from the scriptures in your flesh, which will always fail. The book was written for those seeking and wanting to know God NOT to those promoting an UN-Godly agenda.
You keep worrying about the "mind" and those seeking to follow God will continuue to live in His Spirit.
Got ya, where scripture says "in Adam all die" do you see physical in that verse ? It is both Physical and spiritual and all your spinning does is make you dizzy.
The obvious just isn't obvious to some.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I would love to debate him about the ideas of Pelagius only if he will quote what the man himself wrote. Not what others say that he taught. Here is what John Wesley said:
"St. Augustine was angry at Pelagius: Hence he slandered and abused him, (as his manner was,) without either fear or shame. And St. Augustine was then in the Christian world, what Aristotle was afterwards: There needed no other proof of any assertion, than ''Ipse dixit: “St. Augustine said it.”
You can't believe a word about what Pelagius actually taught unless you read what he actually wrote.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This has already been explain to you but for some reason this simple explanation is way above your head. "All men" are born spiritually alive. Then when "all men" sin they all die spiritually. So if a man is going to be saved he must be born again spiritually by the gospel.
But according to your ridiculous idea a person can die spiritually even though he is not even alive spiritually. You cannot even understand that the word "death" means "the end of life."
In your effort to attempt to defend Original Sin you have tricked your mind into believing the most ludicrous things. Sir Robert Anderson speaks of your malady here:
"In no other sphere save that of religion do men of intelligence and culture willingly subject their minds to delusions. The historic Church once tried to compel belief that this planet was the fixed centre of the solar system; but who believes it now? Men cannot be made to believe that water runs uphill, or that five and five make anything but ten. In no other sphere can they be induced to stultify reason and common sense. But in religion there seems to be no limit to their credulity" (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 61).
dodge
New member
Got ya, where scripture says "in Adam all die" do you see physical in that verse ? It is both Physical and spiritual and all your spinning does is make you dizzy.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have already explained to you the significance of the meaning of the words "In Adam" and "in Christ" but that too is way over your head. Again, no one is "in Christ" automatically. It is not until a person does something and that thing is to believe when he is identified with Christ and is "in Christ."
And to be consistent the same principle applies to the words "in Adam." A person is not automatically identified with Adam by being "in Adam." No one is "in Adam" until he sins.
That makes perfect sense, unlike your idea that those who die spiritually are not alive spiritually before they die spiritually.
One flew over the cuckoo's nest!
dodge
New member
Your explanation is wrong and every time you repeat it you are wrong.
In Adam "ALL" mankind one at a time are going to death as the result of Adam representing the WHOLE human race. In Adam "ALL" of the human race are born with a fallen ( sinful ) nature as scripture says. You are not teaching God's word nor truths YOU are promoting humanism. FYI, everyone is born guilty and condemned or they would not have to be born again as per Jesus' instructions.
You are consistently denying the truth of scripture as in Adam all men die and in Christ all men live.
Every man, woman and child is adjudged guilty before God. The ground of our condemnation is something outside of ourselves.
Inward corruption and alienation from God are the consequences and not the cause of our condemnation. Antecedent to any personal
act of ours (as such), we stand accursed by the Divine Law. Since “death” came as the result of “sin,” since it is the penal sentence
upon it, that sentence cannot be passed upon any save those who are guilty. If, then, death was “passed upon all men,” it must be because
all are guilty, all participated legally in Adam’s offence. Clear and inevitable as is that inference, we are not left to draw it ourselves.
The Apostle expressly states it in the next words: “for that all have sinned”—“for that” or “because,” in consequence of. Here
then is the Divinely given reason why the death penalty is passed upon “all men”—because “all have sinned,” or, as the margin and
the R.V. more accurately render it, “in whom all sinned.” The Apostle is not here saying that all men sinned personally, but representatively.
The Greek verb “sinned” is in the aorist tense, which always looks back to a past action which has terminated. The curse of
the Law falls upon us, first, not because we are sinful, but because we were federally guilty when our covenant head sinned.
In Romans 5:12, the Apostle was not referring to the corrupting of man-kind. It is true that as a result of our first parents’ sin the
springs of human nature were polluted; but this is not what Paul was writing of. Instead he went behind that, and dealt with the cause
of which moral depravity is but one of the effects. A corrupt tree can indeed produce nothing but corrupt fruit, but why are we born
20
with corrupt hearts? Such is more than a terrible calamity: it is a penal infliction visited upon us because of our prior criminality. Punishment
presupposes guilt, and the punishment is given to all because all are guilty, and since God accounts all guilty, then they must
be participants in Adams offence. Well did George Whitefield say, “I beg leave to express my surprise that any person of judgment
should maintain human depravity, and not immediately discover its necessary connection with the imputation, and how impossible it
is to secure the justice of God without having recourse to it; for certainly the corruption of human nature, so universal and inseparable,
is one of the greatest punishments that could be inflicted upon the species . . . . Now if God has inflicted an evident punishment upon a
race of men perfectly innocent, which had neither sinned personally nor yet by imputation; and thus while we imagine we honour the
justice of God by renouncing imputation, we in fact pour the highest dishonour upon that sacred attribute.”
Death, penal death, has been passed upon all men because all sinned in Adam. That the “all have sinned” cannot signify their own
personal transgressions is clear: because the manifest design of Romans 5:12, is to show that Adam’s sin is the cause of death; because
physical death (a part of sin’s wages) is far more extensive than personal transgression—as appears from so many dying in infancy;
and because such an interpretation would destroy the analogy between Adam and the One of whom he was “the figure,” and would
lead unto this comparison: as men die because they sin personally, so all earn eternal life because they are personally righteous!
Equally evident is it that “all have sinned” cannot mean death comes upon men because they are depraved, for this too would clash
with the scope of the whole passage: if our subjective sinfulness be the ground of our condemnation, then our subjective holiness (and
not Christ’s merits) is the ground of our justification. It would also contradict the emphatic assertion of verse 18: “by the offence of
one judgment came upon all men to condemnation.” Thus we are obliged to understand the “all have sinned” of verse 12 as meaning
all sinned in Adam.
If the federal headship of Adam and the imputation of his sin unto all his posterity be repudiated, then what alternative is left us?
Only that of the separate testing of each individual. If the race were not placed on probation in the first man, then each of his offspring
must stand trial for himself. But the conditions of such a trial make success impossible, for each probationer would enter upon it in a
state of spiritual death! The human family is either suffering for the sin of its head or it is suffering for nothing at all. “Man is born
unto trouble,” and from it there is no escape. What then is the explanation of the grim tragedy now being enacted on this earth? Every
effect must have a previous cause. If we be not born under the condemnation of Adam’s offence, then why are we “by nature the children
of wrath” (Eph. 2:3)? “Now either man was tried and fell in Adam, or he has been condemned without trial. He is either under the
curse (as it rests upon him from the beginning of his existence), for Adam’s guilt, or for no guilt at all. Judge which is more honouring
to God: a doctrine which, although profoundly mysterious, represents Him as giving man an equitable and most favourable probation
in his federal head, or that which makes God condemn him untried, even before he exists” (R. L. Dabney)
A.W. Pink the depravity of man.
http://www.chapellibrary.org/files/1313/7643/3192/dohd.pdf
EXACTLY you have no clue. Humanism sends folks to hell every second. I suggest you stop trying to rationalize scripture to fit your WRONG narratives.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You seem to focus on hate a lot?
The same goes for you, Sister Tam.
Amen!
They're fairly similar.