Are People Born Dead In Sin?

[KingdomRose]

Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.


If Paul was once alive, he obviously wasn't born dead in sin.

We can also look at Romans 5:12 and see that we die because of our own sin, which requires the knowledge of good and evil.

You skipped a whole lot of scriptures there in Romans 5.

Paul was also born in sin, and he realized that everyone needed to be included under Christ's ransom sacrifice in order to have eternal life. He said that, previously, he was FOREMOST among sinners. (I Timothy 1:15) Everyone born from Adam is born in sin. Jesus gave up his own human life so that we humans could be absolved of sin. But we have to ACCEPT that sacrifice and follow Christ's footsteps. (John 3:16; I Peter 2:21)

 

[KingdomRose]

Just a comment to Calvinist Ask Mr. Religion: Calvin will have to do a whole lot of re-thinking when he is resurrected by Jehovah through Jesus. He will see clearly and suddenly that his crazy ideas about predestination were purely hogwash.

 

[themuzicman]

You skipped a whole lot of scriptures there in Romans 5.

Actually, Romans 5 supports me, too. 5:12 tells us that all die because we all sin, not because Adam sinned.

Paul was also born in sin

Cite?

and he realized that everyone needed to be included under Christ's ransom sacrifice in order to have eternal life.

Well, those who died when the law came alive. Romans 7:7-9 are pretty clear that Paul was alive until the law came, and he died.

He said that, previously, he was FOREMOST among sinners. (I Timothy 1:15) Everyone born from Adam is born in sin. Jesus gave up his own human life so that we humans could be absolved of sin. But we have to ACCEPT that sacrifice and follow Christ's footsteps. (John 3:16; I Peter 2:21)

None of this changes Romans 7:9

 

[Ben Masada]

From a link provided in another thread, here's one paragraph (emphasis mine):Two questions:
1. Had Christ not lived, died and resurrected, are people born dead in sin?
2. Despite Christ's life, death and resurrection, are people born dead in sin?

If possible, please provide Scriptural basis for your answer.

Good reply Jamie! I would further say that no one is born in sin. To be a sinner, one must become. The Lord
would be unjust if any one were born a sinner. If not by any other reason, the sinner would not be entitled to any kind of punishment.

 

[Ben Masada]

If someone were born "spiritually alive" (which is a concept, and has never been clearly and exegetically defined) without sin (which is a singular articular noun, for which there is an anarthrous form), there would be no need for salvation.

Every one is born spiritually alive yes. If you read Ecclesiastes 7:20 "HaShem created man perfect but he went after many moral decays." Hence, no one is born a sinner but he becomes one when he gets into many spiritual moral distortions.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Every one is born spiritually alive yes. If you read Ecclesiastes 7:20 "HaShem created man perfect but he went after many moral decays." Hence, no one is born a sinner but he becomes one when he gets into many spiritual moral distortions.

Yes, man(kind) was originally created tov (functional) and became ra'a (dysfunctional).

So much for your Kabbalah and Talmud and Zohar and Tikkun garbage, pseudo-Zionist anti-Semite.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Actually, Romans 5 supports me, too. 5:12 tells us that all die because we all sin, not because Adam sinned.

Romans 5:12 tells us death passed upon all men; and it's not because Adam sinned (the verb). It's because of sin (the noun) entering the cosmos by one man, and death by sin (the noun).

No one dies because of Adam's acting and actions as sinning and sins. Death passed upon all men because of the sin (noun), for that all have sinned.

Sin (the noun) is the source for sinning (the verb).

Well, those who died when the law came alive. Romans 7:7-9 are pretty clear that Paul was alive until the law came, and he died.

Alive is zao (and in the imperfect tense), referring not to spiritual life but to physical existence as opposed to physical death. "To spend one's exitence." In this form, related to bios (biological life), not zoe (constant communion with God as spiritual life).

None of this changes Romans 7:9

But you have misunderstood and misrepresented Romans 7:9 because of shallow English presumptions upon the text.

The "alive" in Romans 7:9 is NOT the same life that comes with salvation. It's actually contrasting them, not equating them.

The details of Greek grammar and semantics matter much more than modern English shallow presuppositions from a skim reading of proof-texts, etc.

 

[Samie]

Why do you insist a construct of the Greek lanuage for nouns is "my invention"? You have no idea how foolish you sound and are.

What you're mistaking is articular and anarthrous noun forms of sin. You can't even begin to understand what I'm referring to. That's why you shouldn't be engaging in theological doctrinal apologetics.

This is like a first-semester high school chemistry student trying to lecture a Chemistry PhD about some nominal thing he thinks he understands better than those who have written his textbooks and taught the subject at a level he'll likely never even attain.

You can't/won't even define death (thanatos) and apply it to both physical and spiritual. You just regurgitate this false concept pretending you understand by saying the words without their definitions and applications. Spiritual death and physical death are two different things, though interconnected.

Sin comes from spiritual death, the wages for which is physical death; but you don't/won't/can't understand what that means. And you don't even know what sin IS, in ANY form except the verb and the resulting noun from the verb.

You're in a huge majority, wandering around like zombies and presuming to self-determine what scripture means from a glossed nominal reading by scattered English-only proof-texting. It's the worst epidemic in human history, and it's undermining the Christian Faith.

You think you're doing God a service. You're just interposing singular anarthrous sin for singular articular sin in oppostion to their use and meaning in the text. You can never know this from an English perspective. Never. It requires being renewed in the spirit of the mind. Your foundational epistemology has enslaved you to the patterns of English thought.

My simple reply to the wise and learned one:

1 Corinthians 1:20, 26 - 29

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

I suggest that in lieu of displaying credentials, simply refute my position why the teaching that people are born spiritually dead in sin is a lie. Instead, people are born spiritually alive:

1. The wisest person said God made people upright or righteous, but they sought out many inventions (Eccl 7:29).
2. The Father sent Jesus into this world in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3).
3. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7).

Jesus was made in all things like unto His brethren, brethren - plural, not simply singular like Adam:

NKJ Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

That's a generic application. The pattern is His brethren. The resulting copy is Jesus. As copied from the pattern, the copy is born not spiritually dead in sin. Therefore, the pattern is not born spiritually dead in sin.

 

[themuzicman]

Romans 5:12 tells us death passed upon all men; and it's not because Adam sinned (the verb). It's because of sin (the noun) entering the cosmos by one man, and death by sin (the noun).

You're doing a lot of unnecessary twisting and manufacturing, and you're missing the piece in the middle, which Paul explains further.

Adam sinned, and (physical) death entered the world through Adam. He had access to the tree of life, but because he disobeyed God and gained the knowledge of good and evil, he was barred from it, ensuring his death. As Paul explains in Romans 7, when we encounter law, our flesh reacts badly to it, and we sin. That's why Paul concludes with all die because all sin, rather than all die because Adam sinned.

It's not any more complicated than that.

No one dies because of Adam's acting and actions as sinning and sins. Death passed upon all men because of the sin (noun), for that all have sinned.

That's not what the text says. The text says that all die because all sinned.

Sin (the noun) is the source for sinning (the verb).

Again, that's false, as well, as we see in Romans 7. It is when our flesh encounters law that sin comes about.

Alive is zao (and in the imperfect tense), referring not to spiritual life but to physical existence as opposed to physical death. "To spend one's exitence." In this form, related to bios (biological life), not zoe (constant communion with God as spiritual life).

Now, that's completely silly, because Paul says that when the law came, he died. If this life was physical, then Paul should have physically died when he encountered the law.

And we know that's not the case.

The fact is that when Paul refers to being alive and then dying, he's referring to eternal condemnation, the death and judgment that is inevitable because of sin.

But you have misunderstood and misrepresented Romans 7:9 because of shallow English presumptions upon the text.

Actually, you've completely shredded the text by imposing your view on it. I've studied it in the Greek, and you're either ignoring half the verse, or engaging in special pleading.

The "alive" in Romans 7:9 is NOT the same life that comes with salvation. It's actually contrasting them, not equating them.

Your silliness in interpreting this verse has already been noted.

But you are correct in the sense that it isn't the life that comes with salvation. It's the life that we have before we sin. Without our sin, there is no condemnation.

The details of Greek grammar and semantics matter much more than modern English shallow presuppositions from a skim reading of proof-texts, etc.

And you've pretty much destroyed both texts with your poor exegesis.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You're doing a lot of unnecessary twisting and manufacturing, and you're missing the piece in the middle, which Paul explains further.

Adam sinned, and (physical) death entered the world through Adam. He had access to the tree of life, but because he disobeyed God and gained the knowledge of good and evil, he was barred from it, ensuring his death. As Paul explains in Romans 7, when we encounter law, our flesh reacts badly to it, and we sin. That's why Paul concludes with all die because all sin, rather than all die because Adam sinned.

It's not any more complicated than that.



That's not what the text says. The text says that all die because all sinned.



Again, that's false, as well, as we see in Romans 7. It is when our flesh encounters law that sin comes about.



Now, that's completely silly, because Paul says that when the law came, he died. If this life was physical, then Paul should have physically died when he encountered the law.

And we know that's not the case.

The fact is that when Paul refers to being alive and then dying, he's referring to eternal condemnation, the death and judgment that is inevitable because of sin.



Actually, you've completely shredded the text by imposing your view on it. I've studied it in the Greek, and you're either ignoring half the verse, or engaging in special pleading.



Your silliness in interpreting this verse has already been noted.

But you are correct in the sense that it isn't the life that comes with salvation. It's the life that we have before we sin. Without our sin, there is no condemnation.



And you've pretty much destroyed both texts with your poor exegesis.

Sigh. Like virtually everyone else, you have no idea what hamartia (sin, the noun) is, or what significance Greek articular and anarthrous nouns have for understanding because of English-only concepts.

You mistreat the text because of an ignorance of Greek noun constructs. Join the massive club. It's a plague upon the Christian faith by western hearts and minds who mean well and think they know something.

 

[themuzicman]

Sigh. Like virtually everyone else, you have no idea what hamartia (sin, the noun) is, or what significance Greek articular and anarthrous nouns have for understanding because of English-only concepts.

That's false. I've studied Greek as part of my Master's degree. What you're saying is simply not supportable from the Greek text.

You mistreat the text because of an ignorance of Greek noun constructs. Join the massive club. It's a plague upon the Christian faith by western hearts and minds who mean well and think they know something.

Again, false. I know the constructs. I know how Greek nouns and verbs work.

What you're doing is trying to look down your nose at people who don't know Greek, and telling them they don't know what their talking about.

Well, I know Greek. And what you're claiming isn't Greek. It's your theology.

 

[themuzicman]

Problem #1:

Sin (the noun) is the source for sinning (the verb).

Romans 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

Paul disagrees with you.

This:

Romans 5:12 tells us death passed upon all men; and it's not because Adam sinned (the verb). It's because of sin (the noun) entering the cosmos by one man, and death by sin (the noun).

Romans 5 tells us nothing of the sort. Your self-taught Greek skills combined with listening to one too many uneducated Calvinist "theologians" have convinced you of what isn't in the text.

Romans 5:12 δια τουτο ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους ο θανατος διηλθεν εφ ω παντες ημαρτον

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

The noun "sin" is used because Paul is describing the result of Adam's actions, namely that dead entered because of sin. This doesn't make sin (noun) the source of sinning, or the source of our death.

And the reason it's not is that the text tells us otherwise: We all die, because we all sin.

So, your reasoning is faulty, your reading of the text is faulty, and your attempt to appeal to Greek (because you assume you know little bit about Greek) is also faulty.

And this is demonstrated because Paul explains sin differently than you do in Romans 7.

Oh, and BTW, your obvious and silly failure in an attempt to say that "alive" in Romans 7:9 is physical remains unaddressed.