Are People Born Dead In Sin?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I define sin as as the violation of any of the parameters of the covenant God wrote with his own finger. (Deuteronomy 9:9-12)

Interesting, since those are actions (acting), which would always be a verb.

Sin (hamartia/hamartiai) is a noun, in four forms. Sin (hamartano) is a verb, in multiple tenses, moods, and voices. And sin (hamartema/hamartemata) is a noun, in four forms. None of them are the other, though all are integral.

All you referred to was hamartano, the verb; and without indicating tense, mood, or voice considerations. The majority of references in scripture are to hamartia in its various forms... and all of them are nouns.

THIS is why virtually no one knows the truth about much of anything, but presume they do just because they have the basic ability to think and speak.

 

[Notaclue]

From a link provided in another thread, here's one paragraph (emphasis mine):Two questions:
1. Had Christ not lived, died and resurrected, are people born dead in sin?
2. Despite Christ's life, death and resurrection, are people born dead in sin?

If possible, please provide Scriptural basis for your answer.

2Cor.5:20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For he hath 'made him "to be sin" for us, who knew no sin;' that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Heb.9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time 'without sin ' unto salvation.


shall he appear the second time ' without sin' unto salvation.


Rom.7:18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not


nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh


Rom.8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,


sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh


Mk.10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

there is none good but one, that is, God.


21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Peace.

 

[beloved57]

Only believers are born again and made spiritually alive. This happens when they hear and believe the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

False comment, thats not Gal 3:2 says.

One must be of God to hear Gods words Jn 8:47

⁴⁷ He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Samie]

Of course you do, as it validates my premise that those that disagree with over a thousand years of the church's denunciation of deniers of original sin, are found to hold all manner of doctrinal oddities and error. You are a textbook example of how far one will stray outside the bounds of orthodoxy once one denies original sin.

AMR

That's according to you, of course. I can say the same about you. But the final arbiter is the Bible.

I have explained my position with valid Scriptural basis. And if Scripture is with me, then that's good enough for me, no matter what others say. Copernicus stood alone in standing against the long held belief in the geocentric model of the solar system. We know now he was right. Ages and ages will not convert lie into truth. Truth remains truth even if people refuse to believe it.

Because of what God through Christ did for humanity, people are born spiritually alive. Again, from the wisest man:

NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

I rather agree with Solomon and disagree with promoters of the unbiblical idea that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I have explained my position with valid Scriptural basis. And if Scripture is with me, then that's good enough for me, no matter what others say. Copernicus stood alone in standing against the long held belief in the geocentric model of the solar system. We know now he was right. Ages and ages will not convert lie into truth. Truth remains truth even if people refuse to believe it.

What sort of sophistry is that? So you're now Copernicus? Should everybody with a bad idea or professing some ignorance cop to being Copernicus? Could you be just a tad high on yourself? In terms of scripture and reality, you've more got the sun revolving around yourself, than anything else.

 

[Samie]

To prove that people are born spiritually dead in sin you used the ff verses:

2Cor.5:20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For he hath 'made him "to be sin" for us, who knew no sin;' that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So what if Jesus was made sin for us, does that mean people are born spiritually dead in sin? We sinned AFTER we were born, not before or during birth.

Heb.9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time 'without sin ' unto salvation.


shall he appear the second time ' without sin' unto salvation.

So, because he shall appear the second time 'without sin', that means people are born spiritually dead in sin? I can't see the connection.

Rom.7:18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not


nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh

Why does nothing good dwells in him, says Paul? He answers in the last part: for, or because, the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. When is the "willing and the doing" done? Before birth, during birth, or AFTER birth when one has reached the age of accountability?

Rom.8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,


sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh

This verse endorses my position but against yours. Because when Christ came in the likeness of the sinful flesh of humanity, He was NOT born spiritually dead in sin!!!

Mk.10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

there is none good but one, that is, God.

Of course. And because of that all else are born spiritually dead in sin? So, as your reasoning suggests, the angels are also spiritually dead in sin because God is the only one good.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Peace.

I don't see in any of those verses hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin. In fact, the Father sent the Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. And the likeness of sinful flesh as we see it in Christ is: Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, though he was born in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7). So being made in the likeness of men, was Jesus born spiritually dead in sin? And can do nothing good? It's the reverse that's true.

The Father's sending of His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, having made Him in the LIKENESS of men, proves that people are born spiritually alive, as Jesus was, though in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, and made in the LIKENESS of men.

 

[Samie]

What sort of sophistry is that? So you're now Copernicus? Should everybody with a bad idea or professing some ignorance cop to being Copernicus? Could you be just a tad high on yourself? In terms of scripture and reality, you've more got the sun revolving around yourself, than anything else.

Out of tune.

The mention of Copernicus is in his being alone in his position and castigated by all others in his time. But that did not make Copernicus wrong. That's the idea. Really that simple. Get it now?

 

[Samie]

What sort of sophistry is that? So you're now Copernicus? Should everybody with a bad idea or professing some ignorance cop to being Copernicus? Could you be just a tad high on yourself? In terms of scripture and reality, you've more got the sun revolving around yourself, than anything else.

So how is my position that people are born spiritually alive instead of being born spiritually dead in sin, a bad idea?

Looks like you are saying that to be born spiritually alive is a bad idea, BUT to be born spiritually dead in sin is a good idea.

Wow. Not very unlike calling good evil and evil good.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

So how is my position that people are born spiritually alive instead of being born spiritually dead in sin, a bad idea?

Looks like you are saying that to be born spiritually alive is a bad idea, BUT to be born spiritually dead in sin is a good idea.

Wow. Not very unlike calling good evil and evil good.

Explicitly and lexically define "spiritually alive" and "spiritually dead".

 

[jamie]

Explicitly and lexically define "spiritually alive" and "spiritually dead".

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Paul explained, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

People are not born with the Spirit of Christ and without the Spirit of Christ there is no spiritual life.

 

[dodge]

No one who remains in Christ will see death. All who gets blotted out from the book of life will experience two deaths: one, death from the 7 last plagues, and, two, the lake of fire. The death with which people now die, is but sleep in the eyes of God.

EVERYONE in CHRIST if HE tarries will die physically which is a fact, and death is the result of sin !

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Paul explained, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

People are not born with the Spirit of Christ and without the Spirit of Christ there is no spiritual life.

Yeah, that doesn't help expose the fallacy and heresy of Sambo's Universal Atonement tripe.

 

[Samie]

Explicitly and lexically define "spiritually alive" and "spiritually dead".

You know the definition, wise and learned one. No need to ask whom you call a child when it comes to theological knowledge. Just refute my position that people are born spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead in sin, that is, IF you are not with me in my position.

There is no verse in the Bible that hints people are born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, the Bible tells us through the wisest man that God made people upright but they sought out many inventions. The Bible also tells us that the Father sent His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and that He was made in the LIKENESS of men. If it were true that indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus, being sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and made in the LIKENESS of men, should have been born spiritually dead in sin, too.

 

[Samie]

Yeah, that doesn't help expose the fallacy and heresy of Sambo's Universal Atonement tripe.

Not just with your mouth, wise and learned one. Use Scriptures.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You know the definition, wise and learned one. No need to ask whom you call a child when it comes to theological knowledge. Just refute my position that people are born spiritually alive instead of spiritually dead in sin, that is, IF you are not with me in my position.

There is no verse in the Bible that hints people are born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, the Bible tells us through the wisest man that God made people upright but they sought out many inventions. The Bible also tells us that the Father sent His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and that He was made in the LIKENESS of men. If it were true that indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus, being sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh and made in the LIKENESS of men, should have been born spiritually dead in sin, too.

And there you have it. You can't and won't even define the central terms you insist you depend upon for your heretical Universal Atonement pseudo-doctrine.

I've already refuted your fallacy; you just can't recognize it. You are yet in your sins.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Not just with your mouth, wise and learned one. Use Scriptures.

I did. You don't understand that the minutiae of Greek grammar IS scripture. You have no idea how sad it is that you cling to this contradiction of the inspired text.

You think it's some kind of competition, and you've won some war of English words; and that I'm reciprocating in some power struggle to be right. I'm grived for you (and others), not engaging in argument. I'm trying to lay down my life for you to see your error and have the truth.

 

[Epoisses]

Yeah, that doesn't help expose the fallacy and heresy of Sambo's Universal Atonement tripe.

Or the fallacy of your universal goat atonement that can remove sin!!! Tell me what happened on the day of atonement again when sinners with goat blood expiated sin. What an educated idiot.

 

[Epoisses]

I did. You don't understand that the minutiae of Greek grammar IS scripture. You have no idea how sad it is that you cling to this contradiction of the inspired text.

You think it's some kind of competition, and you've won some war of English words; and that I'm reciprocating in some power struggle to be right. I'm grived for you (and others), not engaging in argument. I'm trying to lay down my life for you to see your error and have the truth.

This guy is basically saying that an English bible is insufficient for Salvation. I have to know the Greek or his interpretation of the Greek in order to be saved. Talk about a con artist. Any verse brought before him will be dismissed on this ground. I would like to hear your understanding of the atonement. If you could bring it down to me level it would be greatly appreciated. Do tell, what happened on the old rugged cross?

 

[Notaclue]

To prove that people are born spiritually dead in sin you used the ff verses:So what if Jesus was made sin for us, does that mean people are born spiritually dead in sin? We sinned AFTER we were born, not before or during birth.


So, because he shall appear the second time 'without sin', that means people are born spiritually dead in sin? I can't see the connection.


Why does nothing good dwells in him, says Paul? He answers in the last part: for, or because, the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. When is the "willing and the doing" done? Before birth, during birth, or AFTER birth when one has reached the age of accountability?

This verse endorses my position but against yours. Because when Christ came in the likeness of the sinful flesh of humanity, He was NOT born spiritually dead in sin!!!


Of course. And because of that all else are born spiritually dead in sin? So, as your reasoning suggests, the angels are also spiritually dead in sin because God is the only one good.


I don't see in any of those verses hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin. In fact, the Father sent the Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. And the likeness of sinful flesh as we see it in Christ is: Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, though he was born in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7). So being made in the likeness of men, was Jesus born spiritually dead in sin? And can do nothing good? It's the reverse that's true.

The Father's sending of His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, having made Him in the LIKENESS of men, proves that people are born spiritually alive, as Jesus was, though in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, and made in the LIKENESS of men.

I don't see in any of those verses hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin. In fact, the Father sent the Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. And the likeness of sinful flesh as we see it in Christ is: Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, though he was born in the likeness of sinful flesh.


Why do you add the word likeness?


2Cor.5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus knew no sin, he had to be born in sin.


Peace.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This guy is basically saying that an English bible is insufficient for Salvation. I have to know the Greek or his interpretation of the Greek in order to be saved. Talk about a con artist. Any verse brought before him will be dismissed on this ground. I would like to hear your understanding of the atonement. If you could bring it down to me level it would be greatly appreciated. Do tell, what happened on the old rugged cross?

No, that's basically what YOU and many others are saying in the inverse. You're insisting English speakers can automatically know every nuance and aspect and facet of meaning in the text by simply reading an English translation without knowing the difficulties of translation.

It's a sub-conscious arrogance that's difficult to recognize and admit.