elected4ever
New member
Did it ever down on you that the new creation of life is a prerequisite for good works? How do you expect to do good works with out being a new creation?godrulz said:
ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
"I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh." Paul uses terms as they are understood, because it is easier. And we should do the same sometimes. But he did not always do that, and neither should we. Discerning when and where is the issue at hand.
Now, when I say that it is my flesh, and not me, it is not that I am not taking blame for the sin I commit in my flesh. It is that I am identifying myself in Christ. I am in Him, because He is in me. And my sin is not in Him. This is not a dual personality, or saying I have two wills. There are two wills at work in a believer, yes, but only one is that of the believer. The other is that of Christ. If there is any sin found in me [and there is] then it is of my own will. It is not of the will of Christ. Does anyone disagree? I didn't think so. So the real question here is should we identify ourselves as in the fleash, or in Christ? I'm sure you all know the correct answer. I am who I am now, the new creation, in Christ, and not in the flesh. And God identifies me through His Son, Jesus Christ. He does not identify me any other way, so why should I identify myself any other way? Why should any of us identify ourselves in any other way than the way God identifies us?
Now, when I say that it is my flesh, and not me, it is not that I am not taking blame for the sin I commit in my flesh. It is that I am identifying myself in Christ. I am in Him, because He is in me. And my sin is not in Him. This is not a dual personality, or saying I have two wills. There are two wills at work in a believer, yes, but only one is that of the believer. The other is that of Christ. If there is any sin found in me [and there is] then it is of my own will. It is not of the will of Christ. Does anyone disagree? I didn't think so. So the real question here is should we identify ourselves as in the fleash, or in Christ? I'm sure you all know the correct answer. I am who I am now, the new creation, in Christ, and not in the flesh. And God identifies me through His Son, Jesus Christ. He does not identify me any other way, so why should I identify myself any other way? Why should any of us identify ourselves in any other way than the way God identifies us?
Brandon.... will you please respond to this....
But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. - 1Corinthians 8:12
Why would Paul use the word sin in this context if it's wrong according to you? :think:
But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. - 1Corinthians 8:12
Why would Paul use the word sin in this context if it's wrong according to you? :think:
He is speaking in human terms. Causing one who is under the law to transgress the law is a transgression of the law. And since our flesh is still under the law...
Is it the part that says, "against Christ," that is the issue you are pointing to, Eric?
Is it the part that says, "against Christ," that is the issue you are pointing to, Eric?
I wrote a song about it:
identity
who am i? how do i identify [myself]?
i'm not the me i used to be
i died with Christ
and i've been reurrected in His Life [salvation]
the old has gone, decayed away
i am a new creation!
my identity is not in the flesh
for how can the living identify with the dead?
i identify with Christ
because the only life i have is His!
sometimes I do things
i will not to do
but that's not me
not anymore
that isn't who i am
it's only who i used to be
i was once born of water
and the blood of man
but now i have been born again
born of the Spirit
by the blood of the Son of Man
my identity is not in the flesh
for how can the living identify with the dead?
i identify with Christ
because the only life i have is His!
who am i? how do i identify [myself]?
i'm not the me i used to be
i died with Christ
and i've been reurrected in His Life [salvation]
the old has gone, decayed away
i am a new creation!
my identity is not in the flesh
for how can the living identify with the dead?
i identify with Christ
because the only life i have is His!
sometimes I do things
i will not to do
but that's not me
not anymore
that isn't who i am
it's only who i used to be
i was once born of water
and the blood of man
but now i have been born again
born of the Spirit
by the blood of the Son of Man
my identity is not in the flesh
for how can the living identify with the dead?
i identify with Christ
because the only life i have is His!
sentientsynth
New member
I can agree with this.Lighthouse said:
Definitely agree with this.Lighthouse said:
Agree, in general.Lighthouse said:
I think so. We bring some more little nuances to light, but I think that you and I are somewhat on the same track.Lighthouse said:
Honestly, that's the first time I've seen you put it thus. I've seen lots of debate on this -- but I think this post of yours has been the clearest so far.Lighthouse said:
This, to me, is where it can get a little messy. I say that because I say both "I sin" and "I am in Christ". I say those both with a straight face. But I look at myself as being somewhat a duality.Lighthouse said:
The first part is the flesh that was crucified and buried with Christ. This part of me still walks upon the earth and performs sinful deeds.
The second is that part of me which was resurrected with Christ and resides in Him in the heavenlies, awaiting to be revealed when He is revealed.
Both are me, but they are not identical. Put symbolically, it's meaningless nonsense. It would look like this:
1. a = b
2. a = c
3. b ≠ c
2. a = c
3. b ≠ c
Which violates some of the nice neat laws of logic of which some are so fond.
But, alas, revelation is greater than reason. :cheers:
I call what you're talking about here "forensic identification." We have the "legal standing" of His Son before Him. But as regards our makeup in the here and now, that is, upon the earth, where the flesh still wars against the spirit, we are in possession of more than just this, though it will be cast off one fine day.Lighthouse said:
Given what you said above, I think we would probably agree more with one another if we could come to terms on "vocabulary" or whatnot. For the most part, I think we're in the same ballpark, perhaps.
SS
Of course!Lighthouse said:
And when people say "Christians can sin but their sin is covered" we are speaking in human terms. What other terms should we humans be speaking in?
Excellent!sentientsynth said:
Very well put.
I have said all along that theologically I agree with what Lighthouse, Sozo and e4e are saying (for the most part) yet semantically, practically and dogmatically I think they are guilty of unnecessarily confusing the topic at hand.
sentientsynth
New member
I didn't know there was more than one.
sentientsynth
New member
Thanks.Knight said:
It can be a confusing topic. Definitely not for the semantically, practically, and dogmatically challenged.Knight said:
Which is all the more reason to simply stick with using the word "sin" the way God used it in the Bible and not create a theologically divisive, and confusing contention among believers and nonbelievers.sentientsynth said:
Knight-
Does God see your sin?
Does God see your sin?
sentientsynth
New member
What do you think Paul is talking about when he says that the "flesh lusts after the spirit"?Sozo said:
Gal_5
16 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall no way fulfil flesh’s lust.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are opposed one to the other, that ye should not do those things which ye desire;
I think he's saying that the flesh lusts for certain things that do not please God, but the spirit lusts (maybe there's a better word) ... desires certain things that do please God. The believer is aware of the lusting of the flesh and he is aware of the desiring of the spirit.
When he says, "that ye should not", the "that" is hina, meaning "in order that" or "with the result being". The result of the contrary desirings of the flesh and of the spirit is that we "may not keep on doing (constantly, consistently, without wavering even once)" what we want to do.
18 but if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under law.
The "if" here ought to be rendered "since". Since believers are led by the spirit, then we are not under the law, which would surely result in our condemnation, since no person has ever lived a life of sinless perfection in their earthly walk, either before or after regeneration.
Note: I don't think the flesh lusts against the Spirit (the Holy Spirit), but against the spirit (that God-quickened part of the saint).
sentientsynth
New member
Paul used the word "sin" to describe certain activities of the quickened saint. So will I.Knight said:
Of course! Is He blind?Lighthouse said:
When a Christian steals an iPod from the store God can see that event if He so chooses.
Yet figuratively speaking He doesn't "see" our sin in the sense that we will not be punished for it. In Christ our sin is covered like a blanket and is not imputed to us.
Lighthouse there is an elephant in your living room and it looks like this....
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
You are doing a fine job of walking around the elephant but you haven't made any attempt at getting him to leave.Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
And frankly that should end the debate.sentientsynth said:
But some have a huge investment in the debate and their pride will not let them concede.
Sozo
New member
sentientsynth said:
Let's look at...
"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."
Galatians 5:13
Paul reminds them again, that they have been called to freedom. They are free from the Law. They are no longer slaves of sin, but slaves of righteousness (Romans 6). They must not give the flesh an opportunity to put them back under the Law. And they must not put others back under the Law, as has been happening to them by the Judaizers. Instead, they are to serve one another in love, not through the Law. In other words, they have got to stop challenging each other’s behavior and claiming that they are righteous if they do this or that. That is exactly what the son of the bondwoman was doing to persecute the son of the free woman (Galatians 4).
"For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another."
Galatians 5:14-15
If you are going to use the Law against one another, then you are not acting in love, but rather you are preaching another gospel (Galatians 1) (All of this is tied together in the reason Paul is writing to Galatia). Again, when someone starts using the Law to be made perfect, then you are preaching a gospel that is apart from grace. When you accuse others of not being right with God because of their inability to keep the Law, then you will also be found guilty. (The Law has shut up all men under sin).
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."
Galatians 5:16
In context to this letter, what does Paul say about the spirit and the flesh?
Let’s look at Galatians 4…
"But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman." So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman."
Galatians 4:29-31
The desire of the flesh is to be justified through the works of the Law. If you walk by the Spirit, you will not try to be justified by the works of the Law.
"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."
Galatians 5:17
The flesh wants to be justified by the Law, and the Spirit through the promise by faith.
They are opposed to each other. You cannot walk in the Spirit and yet try and be justified through keeping the Law. (Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?).
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
Galatians 5:18
Paul makes it clear, you are not under the Law, if you are led by the Spirit. Why put yourself under the yoke of slavery. You began by the Spirit, and you have no relationship with the Law.
If you are going to live under the Law, then the only things that you can produce are the deeds of the flesh, because the purpose of the Law is to reveal sin.
"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Galatians 5:19
The Law proves that you are guilty of all the things that the flesh will produce. If you are going to live under the demands of the Law, then you will be found a sinner and the penalty is death, and you will not inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh, under the demands of the Law, can only produce sin and death!
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
Galatians 5:20
These are the only things that the Spirit (which belongs to God) can produce. If you are in the Spirit, then you are not in the flesh. You are not under the Law. You have received the gift of righteousness through faith in Christ. You bear the fruit of the Spirit. You are no longer under God's wrath and condemnation. You have been set free from His wrath, free from sin, free from the Law, and free from death. (Romans 5-8)
"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
Galatians 5:21
Have we been crucified with Christ? If so, then the flesh can no longer hold you accountable to the Law for righteousness. You have died to the Law (Romans 7).
"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."
Galatians 5:22
Are you in the Spirit? Then stop walking according to the Law. And stop challenging others to walk according to the Law to be made perfect.
"Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another."
Galatians 5:23
If you are going to trust the Law for righteousness, then all you can do is boast in your flesh, challenge others to do what you do, and envy those whom you think are right because they do right!
Therefore…
Romans 8:5-10
“For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.”
sentientsynth
New member
That's been my sentiment all along.Knight said:
C'mon now, Knight. You know what the real problem is -- we're a bunch of Christ-hating, worse-than-faggots, wolves-in-sheeps-clothing. Didn't you get the memo? (Sozo told me he sent it to you.)Knight said:But some have a huge investment in the debate and their pride will not let them concede.