ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[Benjamin]

Sozo and E4E preach a false gospel which pleases the flesh and leads many into sin assuming that it is ok.

I prefer the Bible:

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Now we know that these people could not have prophesied or cast out demons (see Acts 19:13-16) if they were not "saved" at one time. However, they had the "evil servant" condition (see Matthew 24:45-51 for a full refutal of OSAS/ strange false gospels which please your ears and lead astray- bear in mind that an unbeliever is not a "servant" of the "Master").

And these people who were not admitted into heaven were given 2 telling labels by the Son, literally the reasons they were not admitted:

1. "they never knew Him"

2. they "practised lawlessness" (sin for those who are confused).

 

[Benjamin]

Hey that's a great verse, do you know what it means?

Where does sin reign?

I'll give you a clue, it's in the previous chapter.

I'll give you a clue: DO NOT LET sin reign IN YOUR MORTAL BODY.

1. Do you understand that this is written to believers?
2. Do you understand what "do not let" means?

 

[Sozo]

Sozo and E4E preach a false gospel which pleases the flesh and leads many into sin assuming that it is ok.

I prefer the Bible:

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Now we know that these people could not have prophesied or cast out demons (see Acts 19:13-16) if they were not "saved" at one time. However, they had the "evil servant" condition (see Matthew 24:45-51 for a full refutal of OSAS/ strange false gospels which please your ears and lead astray- bear in mind that an unbeliever is not a "servant" of the "Master").

And these people who were not admitted into heaven were given 2 telling labels by the Son, literally the reasons they were not admitted:

1. "they never knew Him"

2. they "practised lawlessness" (sin for those who are confused).

:rotfl: You idiot, you just condemned yourself.

You are the ones who are saying that you practice sin. :rotfl:

No go crawl back into your hole, little boy. This discussion is way out of your league.

 

[Benjamin]

Hey that's a great verse, do you know what it means?

Where does sin reign?

I'll give you a clue, it's in the previous chapter.

Let me try to get through your extremely thick head again, because I honestly think you've just been duped as opposed to you purposely being a wicked Gospel switching heretic. So, Sozo, please follow this verse closely:



Romans 8:13

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NASB: for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (NASB ©1995)
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GWT: If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live. (GOD'S WORD®)
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KJV: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
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ASV: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
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BBE: For if you go in the way of the flesh, death will come on you; but if by the Spirit you put to death the works of the body, you will have life.
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DBY: for if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die; but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live:
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WEY: For if you so live, death is near; but if, through being under the sway of the spirit, you are putting your old bodily habits to death, you will live.
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WBS: For if ye live according to the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
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WEB: For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
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YLT: for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;



Now, you realize that when we receive the Spirit- we only live if we put to death the deeds of the body? Please see Galatians 5:19-23 for a description of what the walking in the flesh produces vs what walking in the Spirit involves:

Galatians 5:19-23

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.


It is clear then that a Christian has new desires and has become a new person (John 3:3/ 2 Corinthians 5:17), but then must overcome and actually crucify the flesh with the Holy Spirit (Rev 3:10/ Luke 21:36/ Matthew 24:13/ Gal 5:24/ Romans 8:13/ 2 Tim 2:19).

 

[Benjamin]

:rotfl: You idiot, you just condemned yourself.

You are the ones who are saying that you practice sin. :rotfl:

No go crawl back into your hole, little boy. This discussion is way out of your league.

Go and learn the Bible:

Galatians 5:24

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

 

[Benjamin]

and again:

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

and more pertenant to the OP:

James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Sozo]

Seriously, Benjamin, you are being disruptive. This thread is exclusively for Christians, which it is apparent you are not.

Knight and I agreed to have a civil discussion about this, and we don't need to have interruptions from godless morons like you, who preach works righteosuness.

The majority of believers on this site view you as a false teacher, and have no interest in your comments. Please take them to someone who cares.

Knight, please advise.

 

[Benjamin]

Seriously, Benjamin, you are being disruptive. This thread is exclusively for Christians, which it is apparent you are not.
.

I love the way you stray away from a dispute and resort to ad hominem slurs when the Scripture is so clearly not in your favor.

You don't hold up very well with those who are Scripturally aware, but you attack peoples character to protect your pride- kinda like an 11 year old really.

 

[Benjamin]

James 5:19-20 should end this one.

 

[Sozo]

Furthermore.... the notion that a Christian cannot sin, unnecessarily confuses the gospel message. There is NO pay-off to this argument. The unbeliever sees the actions of Christians who sin and can recognize that behavior is sinful and then wonders why a Christian argues that Christians cannot sin! They either conclude that Christians are hypocrites or that the sinning person is not a Christian, either way it defeats the purpose of telling the lost that we need not be perfect.... that was Jesus job.

I'm confused by your last comment. We are to tell the lost that they need to be perfect. That is a major point in presenting the gospel.

What the lost see, is the church telling them that we are right because we don't do as many bad things as they do, and that if they would only become a Christian then they will stop doing as many bad things and be like us. That is the point Paul makes in Romans 2.

If doing right is the outworking standard or sign of our salvation, then when the lost meet that standard, they can boast of being no different than we are. When we believe that showing others that we "have it together" or "keep the Law", we offer them very little hope. But, when we show them that we are all on the same level, and that everyone’s "good works" is as "filthy rags" and that we are totally dependent on Christ, then we give the lost, hope, because anyone can do that! They need to see that we are set free fom sin by our identity in Christ. They need to see sin as it is defined by God, not as it is defined by man. They need the truth, not what they perceive to be truth.

Today is my daughter's 10th birthday, so I will respond to the verses you posted as time permits.

 

[CabinetMaker]

There is an old bumper sticker that I have come to appreciate:

Christians arn't perfect, just forgiven.

I think that is a great summary for this thread. Christians don't stop sinning. Paul said he does that which he does not want to do and doesn't do the things he knows he should. We all fall into that. The difference between us and unbelievers is that we know we have been wash clean by Jesus's blood. ALL of our sins are behind God never to be seen again. Whether those sins were commited last year or will be committed next year is irrelivant as they are ALL forgiven.

This is not a license to sin. Your love for God should manifest itself in obediance to God and following His laws even though your are not judged under that law. But you also have the assurance that when the skimpy swimsuit pops up during a Google search, that brief flash of lust is forgiven.

None are perfect under the law. Man can't do it. That is why we needed Jesus to live the perfect life under the law for us. He has done that so now you don't have to. You will sin, as will I. Knight and Turbo and Poly, PastorKevin, Logos-x,Allmiles, RealSourcer and everybody else on this board will sin. Those of us who know Christ as our saviour have the assurance that those sins are forgiven.

 

[Sozo]

There is an old bumper sticker that I have come to appreciate:

Christians arn't perfect, just forgiven.

That bumper sticker is a lie.

The truth is, Christians aren't just forgiven, they're perfect.

"Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

 

[CabinetMaker]

That bumper sticker is a lie.

The truth is, Christians aren't just forgiven, they're perfect.

"Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

And we still sin. I sure like Gods definition of what is perfect a whole lot better than our definition of perfect.

 

[Sozo]

I sure like Gods definition of what is perfect a whole lot better than our definition of perfect.

Me too, that's why I quoted God's definition.

And we still sin.

I also prefer God's definition of sin, and that is why you could not be more wrong.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

 

[Benjamin]

Me too, that's why I quoted God's definition.

I also prefer God's definition of sin, and that is why you could not be more wrong.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

So, you don't think James believed the same as John the Apostle? At the Jerusalem counsil in Acts 15, James seems to be the head over the whole of the body at that time.

And he proves that a Christian can sin and that a Christian can go to hell clearly in his Epistle:

James 5:19-20 (Darby Translation)
My brethren, if any one among you err from the truth, and one bring him back, let him know that he that brings back a sinner from [the] error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.​

Read the Bible sozo, instead of your Scripture twisting guides on "101 ways to misintrepret Scripture".

 

[godrulz]

He is warning the believers to reject someone who brings division. (like we all should with godrulz. However, since he has not been publically rebuked, and is encouraged to continue preaching a false gospel, I am obligated to continue warning other believers that there is a divisive man in the camp). A divisive man is literally a heretic.

What, you think I've never read that verse before? Give me a break.

Sin City?

No offense, no defense.

But the fruit of the Spirit is self-control :shut:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Me too, that's why I quoted God's definition.

I also prefer God's definition of sin, and that is why you could not be more wrong.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

Consider this. Jesus redeemed us from judgement under the law. Paul tells us that apart from the law there is no sin. So, when we do something that would be considered a sin under the law, it is not a sin for a saved believer because they are not judged under that law.

 

[Philetus]

SOZO: ............

What the lost see, is the church telling them that we are right because we don't do as many bad things as they do, and that if they would only become a Christian then they will stop doing as many bad things and be like us. That is the point Paul makes in Romans 2.

If doing right is the outworking standard or sign of our salvation, then when the lost meet that standard, they can boast of being no different than we are. When we believe that showing others that we "have it together" or "keep the Law", we offer them very little hope. But, when we show them that we are all on the same level, and that everyone’s "good works" is as "filthy rags" and that we are totally dependent on Christ, then we give the lost, hope, because anyone can do that! They need to see that we are set free fom sin by our identity in Christ. They need to see sin as it is defined by God, not as it is defined by man. They need the truth, not what they perceive to be truth.

I love this post! It spells out the real problem.


WE don’t have it together … never did ... never will! The law makes that clear. But, because Jesus had it together, always did; always will, lived a perfect sinless life as the Son of God, and still died, He died for us and because of us to get us back together with God. Jesus the righteous died for the unrighteous and God accepts His death as our ‘marker’ for all sin; all sin: yours, mine and theirs. Now when God calls in His ‘marker’ we either claim Jesus as our righteousness or we die for our own sins.

Righteousness (or satisfaction of God’s demands on how we live) is imputed (applied) to us by Grace through Faith in Jesus. The righteousness of Christ applies to us because we are associated with Him. And the remarkable thing is … God accepts that marker! Our sins are covered not because we don’t sin but because Jesus never ever did and never will. Our sins no longer add up in our account as to what we owe God. They are not even listed.

You are right: We are never to tell somebody to become like us in order to be accepted by God.

And Sozo, you are also right: the church (for the most part) is telling the world to come in here and be like us (more or less sinless) when Jesus said go out there and be like me (redemptive). WE can be LIKE Him. But, we will never be able to cover our own ‘marker’ with God. And God holds a marker (IOU) on all of us because of sin. What we need to be telling the lost is that we aren’t ‘perfect’ either in the sense that we still do the same things that they do and we are just as ashamed of it that they ought to be, not that sin doesn’t exist any longer where we are concerned, but that our sin is covered so we can enjoy a relationship with God in Christ.

Further, that should be sufficient motivation to make every effort to stop sinning. But, to quote you, “good luck with that.” :chuckle:

I think you have identified the problem that most Christians want to sweep under the ‘holy rug’. I just think the way you address it creates more of a problem, or at least just as great a problem in a different way.

 

[Benjamin]

Paul tells us that apart from the law there is no sin.

Romans 5:13-14

for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

 

[Benjamin]

What we need to be telling the lost is that we aren’t ‘perfect’ either in the sense that we still do the same things that they do and we are just as ashamed of it that they ought to be, not that sin doesn’t exist any longer where we are concerned, but that our sin is covered so we can enjoy a relationship with God in Christ.

That is your message huh?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Maybe you better rethink that one feller.