ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[godrulz]

Continuation of post #365 before I shut my big yap (dissect it, don't just say are you holy or not...I am holy, but I have had an unholy thought in the last 25 years).

Sozo: The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits- Albert Einstein

2 Peter 1:3-11 talks about his divine power (Godward side/grace) that gives us everything we need for life and godliness, not just a positional theory. Through the promises we can become like Him practically. We (manward) side are to make every EFFORT to add these character qualities. Not all are equally mature or obedient. Not all live up to the light they have. We are not cookie cutter clones. We are to possess these qualities in increasing measure as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Those who do not have them or claim that we do not need them because we are sinlessly perfect in Christ are shortsighted (why I call you myopic) and have forgotten that we have been cleansed from past sins (notice that Pauline, Petrine, Johannine theology do not negate believer's salvation because they do not spout sozoisms?). Make your calling and election sure..IF (conditional) we DO these things, we will not fall. These truths are not contrary to initial justification/sanctification. Is Peter demon possessed because he believes like I do (for the Mid-Acts peanut gallery, the same principles can be found in Pauline theology).

Our heart and life and mind should reflect the fact we are in Christ. There are a variety of sinless perfectionism and antinomian views. Sozo does not like the label, but some of his views tend that way though not in the extreme.

Themes of obedience vs disobedience are found in the OT, teachings of Christ, Pauline, Petrine, Johannine, James, theology. The many Pauline exhortations and imperatives show that there is a life to live after initial setting apart. Coming up with a metaphysical, causative flesh negates moral responsibility rooted in our wills and spirit. Choice is not a bad word, but a fundamental aspect of how we relate to God and others in love. The Bible does not just proof text positional, theoretical standing before God. It equally emphasizes how this is fleshed out in the believer's growing walk with God. We are to walk in the Spirit, not flesh, to live in the light (moral) as Jesus is in the light. Not every believer does this equally well in every choice in every moment. Talking about one choice does not mean we are rejecting Christ or His finished work. It is just linking doctrine and practice like Paul did in his letters (first half of book is doctrinal, while last half of book is often practical living and application of it).

Free will vs determinism, monergism vs synergism, etc. impact our views on practical Christian living subsequent to salvation. Whitefield and Sproul are just as saved as Wesley and Hunt, despite divergent understandings in this area.

 

[Sozo]

People who think they can sin with impunity because their future sins are automatically forgiven, even while they are persisted in. This presumes on God's grace and divorces theory from practice.

If I say that a little fooling around is OK because I am a Christian and will not go to hell anyway, it is using grace as an excuse to sin without consequence. For some Roman believers, they wrongly thought that since God's grace is so free and wonderful, why not sin some more so they could have more grace?! Few think that way today, but many believers do rationalize their compromise and allow sin in the camp. Few churches discipline believers today. No wonder we are so anemic and compromised with the world.

You have no idea what you are saying. You lack zero understanding of Romans 5 & 6.

 

[Sozo]

godrulz... I am compelled by God to warn you that you are not saved. You are not a believer in Christ.

Unless you repent of your self-righteousness, turn to Christ alone for salvation, you will go to hell.

 

[godrulz]

What makes you holy, godrulz?

What? Who! Jesus and His indwelling Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is actual character development in the believer as the Spirit reproduces the life and attitude of Christ in us. This is not despite or without us. If I chose to hate you (possible), it means I am not loving in that one choice. It does not mean that I also hate God at that moment (though John links our vertical and horizontal love).

Jesus said that if you love me you will obey me. Loving obedience subsequent to justification by grace through faith alone leads to a holy life before God consistent with His setting us apart as holy as a new creature in Christ initially.

I cannot be holy without the Holy Spirit. God does not make unregenerate believers holy apart from Him. He does not force us to obey and grow after we are set apart. He does expect our walk to match our talk, or do you have a different NT than I do?

 

[godrulz]

What makes you holy, godrulz?

Jesus makes me holy. Am I saved now? Can we carry on with the practical outworkings of this now?

 

[Sozo]

I see why you answered the question twice with two totally different answers.

In one, you give all the glory to Jesus.

In the other, you give all the glory to you.

You are double-minded.

 

[godrulz]

You are a such an idiot.

Frankly, I wonder why more people don't tell you that you are wrong. Either they don't know the truth, or they don't think you are wrong.

You quoted the verse that states that no one will see the Lord unless they are holy.

Is it your hope that you are holy the moment you die?

If you do something that YOU consider a "sin" right before you get plowed by a semi, are you going to hell?

According to your bizzare theology you would.

Proof that you misunderstand and misrepresent my theology. I am not hyper-Arminian and believe in the security of the believer. There is a sense that the blood of Christ continually cleanses us from sin (even the OT had provision for willful sins and sins of ignorance or omission). I have eternal life and holiness now. I will be like Him when I see Him.

As I have said before, the sin of godless, defiant unbelief against great light is a rejection of the person and work of Christ just as it was before conversion. Unbelief severs the relationship (more than honest doubts). Going to a bar, kissing a woman, leaving without paying, etc. before the rapture or getting hit by a truck when you leave the bar does not send you to hell (if you were in Christ before your lapse in judgment).

Straw man...good one :baby:

 

[godrulz]

This is heresy, and the foundation of your false gospel of self-righteousness.

This is exactly what Rom. 6:13, 14 teaches. We can look at our overall relationship with Christ or we can look at one choice (as God does). David was not born again, but do not try to tell me his Holy God and the prophet sent by God had no concern for his sin (murder and adultery). They called him to repentance and obedience, not to becoming a believer again. The principle is the same in the New Covenant. Intimacy/fellowship/sin issues are not the same as initial relationship/reconciliation/justification issues.

One of us does not get it...and I am not convinced it is me :dizzy:

 

[godrulz]

You have no idea what you are saying. You lack zero understanding of Romans 5 & 6.

Most of Romans 4; 5 is about initial justification. Romans 6-8 is mostly about subsequent sanctification.

 

[godrulz]

godrulz... I am compelled by God to warn you that you are not saved. You are not a believer in Christ.

Unless you repent of your self-righteousness, turn to Christ alone for salvation, you will go to hell.

This is a public service announcement from sozo's flesh. I am sure God would have given me the message many times over in the last 25 years if it was consistent with Him. It is a serious thing to use the name of the Lord in vain and presume to speak His words when they are not from him, but from your flesh or a demonic spirit.

The Holy Spirit has given me peace, power, presence, and assurance of eternal life and godliness through my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and His finished work.

Until I spout sozoisms, you will not be happy. Too bad, so sad. I trust Him and His Word, not your opinions of it (that I can live with by and large anyway). I cannot save myself. How many times do I have to assert this?

This is why you should not play god as judge, jury, and executioner. You are too biased to get it right. :dunce:

 

[godrulz]

I see why you answered the question twice with two totally different answers.

In one, you give all the glory to Jesus.

In the other, you give all the glory to you.

You are double-minded.

Where did I give glory to me? I cannot provide or initiate salvation. I did not die on the tree for my sins nor yours. While I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me. He alone gets all of the glory. You make the same mistake as our monergistic Calvinistic friends make. They think that if we love, obey, repent, or believe, that it robs God of glory and makes us self-righteous. In fact, God commands these things because He wants reciprocal love relationships, not coerced robotic entities. Trusting, loving, obeying are responses of children to their Father. Ther are NOT self-righteous works.

When you figure this out, let me know. I will accept your apology and recognition from you that I am a brother in Christ, despite my imperfect understanding of the Word.

The fact that it is the glory of a king to search out a matter or that He wants us to come and reason together about salvation (Is.) is getting me in trouble. I could have blindly, uncritically accepted what I was spoon fed as a new believer in Bible College. I would then be saved (we bought Miles Stanford's 'Green' books also). My doctorate level profs would be saved in your books, yet we were bonded as brothers in Christ, despite our questions as students. I was saved, but am not saved now, because my understanding on Open Theism, spiritual growth, etc. has grown?!

I cannot defend Augustinian 'original sin' as biblical. It is problematic. Does this now make me less saved than when I did accept it? When I did spout your views, was I more saved than I am now? Should I quit going deeper in my understanding and accept things that do not ring true just to be in your good books?

:hammer: :wave2: :noid:

 

[Sozo]

This is exactly what Rom. 6:13, 14 teaches. We can look at our overall relationship with Christ or we can look at one choice (as God does). David was not born again, but do not try to tell me his Holy God and the prophet sent by God had no concern for his sin (murder and adultery). They called him to repentance and obedience, not to becoming a believer again. The principle is the same in the New Covenant. Intimacy/fellowship/sin issues are not the same as initial relationship/reconciliation/justification issues.

One of us does not get it...and I am not convinced it is me :dizzy:

You do not have a clue what any of Romans is addressing.

Those who are in Christ have been transferred from one domain, into another. The law of sin and death is no longer a reality for the believer. We are no longer in darkness, but are now in the light. It was a complete change of identity, and a change of venues.

You don't know or understand even the basics of what Paul is saying, because you do not have the mind of Christ.

Verses 12-13

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

So now, because a believer is "free from sin", it is ludicrous for them to allow sin to reign in their body by obeying it, rather than obeying righteousness by faith in Christ. Are they going to go back and undo all that Paul just explained from chapter 1 until now, and obey the Law for righteousness and once again declare themselves a sinner, thus obeying sin? Which is it? Are they going to go back and present the members of their body to a system that proves they are a sinner, or are they going to present themselves to God as what they are... an instrument of righteousness? Are they in sin or in Christ? Are they dead or alive?

Verse 14

"For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace"

Sin has lost it's power in their life, not because they are obeying the Law, but because they have died to it through Christ's sacrifice, and they are now alive in the Spirit, by grace through righteousness.

It's very simple, godrulz, and you see everything through eyes of a pride-filled, self-righteous heart. When you read the bible, you internalize the passages, as though it is all dependent upon you, instead of seeing that it is all about Him.

You need to be undone with you, and turn to Christ.

 

[Sozo]

This is a public service announcement from sozo's flesh. I am sure God would have given me the message many times over in the last 25 years if it was consistent with Him. It is a serious thing to use the name of the Lord in vain and presume to speak His words when they are not from him, but from your flesh or a demonic spirit.

The Holy Spirit has given me peace, power, presence, and assurance of eternal life and godliness through my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and His finished work.

Until I spout sozoisms, you will not be happy. Too bad, so sad. I trust Him and His Word, not your opinions of it (that I can live with by and large anyway). I cannot save myself. How many times do I have to assert this?

This is why you should not play god as judge, jury, and executioner. You are too biased to get it right. :dunce:

godrulz... I'm not kidding. You had better learn to humble yourself, and take heed to what I am telling you.

You do not have the Holy Spirit. You are deceived.

 

[godrulz]

godrulz... I'm not kidding. You had better learn to humble yourself, and take heed to what I am telling you.

You do not have the Holy Spirit. You are deceived.

You cannot judge the heart, mind, relationship of men with God over the internet. You already have shown you are prone to misunderstanding things due to your blind rage against the machine. Take off your rose colored glasses.

For someone who rejects modern prophets, you seem to be imitating one. When what you say lines up with what the Spirit, the Word, and godly believers are speaking into my life, then I will humble myself before you. Having confidance in my salvation based on Christ and His finished work is not pride needing humility. I was a wretched sinner; now I am a saint. I continue to rejoice with thanksgiving. Keep your earthworm theology to yourself. For someone who can't be in the flesh, you sure are in the flesh. Perhaps you should not have rejected the person and work of the Spirit so quickly (Mr. former charismatic). We need the Spirit for discernment. Your misjudgment is clearly of your own flesh, so quit using the Lord's name in vain (it is more than swearing as a curse of God's name, right?).

The reason Romans 6-8 was inspired was because the Roman Christians, like their fleshly Corinthian cousins, were not living up to their standing in Christ. The passage is instructional and rebuking for believers because we are all not 'perfect' like you are, Meester Sozoite.

 

[Sozo]

You cannot judge the heart, mind, relationship of men with God over the internet.

Sure, I can. I know what you believe, and why you believe it based on hundreds of your posts. It's not rocket science.

I know what a false teacher is. I know what an unbeliever is.

It's you.

 

[godrulz]

Sure, I can. I know what you believe, and why you believe it based on hundreds of your posts. It's not rocket science.

I know what a false teacher is. I know what an unbeliever is.

It's you.

Are you nominating me for an award?

More heat than light?!

This is kind of fun.

Can you go to bed, so I can go to bed?

I will be going out of town for the weekend. You can poison the wells and my reputation unchecked while I am gone. I trust the Spirit, unlike you, apparently.

 

[godrulz]

So, sanctification involves a setting apart at justification as sozo prefers to emphasize. This does not contradict the other side of the coin where it is also progressive and practical with a Godward/manward element.

The Corinthian saints ('brothers') were addressed not as spiritual, but as worldly/carnal, mere infants, but still IN Christ (I Cor. 3:1). They were not sinlessly 'perfect' as evidenced by the wild issues Paul had to deal with them over (even using the word sin, as Knight points out). Their actual condition was not measuring up to the position and purposes they were to have in Christ. Paul does not make excuses that the flesh is making them do it. He holds them personally responsible and calls them to repentance and renewed obedience because these things were an act of their own wills, contrary to God's will for them.

I Thess. 4:1 ff. Paul gives instructions on how they are to live in order to please God. If I mention anything about Christian living subsequent to justification, I get accused of being demon possessed and having a self-righteous works false gospel?! He urges the Thess. saints to do this more and more (progressive) to reflect their standing in Christ (positional). It was God's WILL that they should BE HOLY. How? Just by repeating a mantra that they are holy in Christ and perfectly sinless despite sinning? No. The command is to avoid sexual immorality and to learn to control their body (not flesh personification with another will or a dead corpse) in a way that is holy (those who give in to immorality are not controlling their body in a holy way...holiness is not just a state, but it involves volition and actual experience...see I Peter 1:13-16 imperative). Paul said that God would punish men and the saints for all such SINS, as he already warned the church (because some of them were sinning...duh). God did not call us to impurity, but to LIVE a holy life (hmmm....not just say the mantra that I am holy so it does not matter what I do...I am still perfect, even in sinful choices?!).

Those who reject these instructions (believers) reject God, not man. Sozo seems to have to redefine a paragraph like this. Reject men's distortion, not the clarion call of God to be holy as He is holy in practical Christian living. Living to please God with loving obedience does not contradict justification by grace through faith alone, apart from works (nor initial setting apart as holy that must be added to more and more as we grow in love for God and others choice by choice, day by day).

 

[godrulz]

Colossians 3 talks about our identification with Christ (sozo's point I agree with).

It does not stop there. We have a whole chapter urging us to obey imperatives relating to practical Christian living. Does this mean Paul is teaching works salvation and is going to hell like godruls (in sozo's mind)?

We are to put to death immorality, greed, lust, etc. We must rid ourselves of sinful things like anger, slander, lying, etc. Why? Some of the saints were doing these things (without ceasing to be saved...quit misrepresenting my views). Lying is a sin. Paul tells them to quit lying to each other (i.e. quit sinning in that choice...does not mean they are godless sinners since they are still in Christ). We are to clothe ourselves with Christ (not just a monergistic, unilateral work of the Spirit...our obedient choices are strengthened as we yield to and respond to the indwelling Spirit, but it is not automatic, or the whole exhortation does not make sense).

This is more than wrongdoings (euphemism for what the Bible calls sin).

Holiness involves a setting apart as unto God AND a practical fleshing out of it in obedience and love (pattern in OT and NT). The whole responsibility for this is not on the believer (that would be self-righteousness). Rather, it is a cooperative thing between God and man, that is not possible apart from the life of Christ in us. He has appointed means and given us grace for internal and external 'sanctification'. He gets the glory, but we are more than passive sock puppets or robots (or else we would all be equally mature and obedient from minute one= cookie cutter clones).

 

[godrulz]

When Isaiah saw the holiness of the Lord, he became conscious of his need for cleansing. When a believer is convicted by the Spirit, we need to respond, not euphemize it away (I Jn. 1:9).

When the world deals with the Spirit convicting them of sin, we have spiritual awakening and new birth in Christ. Judgment begins with the house of God, the Church. When believers deal with sin in the camp, we have revival (if my people...humble themselves...pray, etc.).

Man must cooperate with God (who is not a divine rapist). I Thess. 5:23 shows that sanctification involves our whole person: spirit, soul, and body, and that it is not just instantaneous. He sanctifies and continues to sanctify, not just in theory, but in actual experience. Heb. 13: 20, 21 shows the Godward provision, but also talks about our DOING His will as He works in us, but not apart from us.

I Cor. 6:11 ff. talks about the initial work of sanctification. Sozo sees this truth, as do I, but he seems to reject the other side of the coin and equates any talk of it as self-righteousness (classic non-sequitur...does not follow unless you make a straw man, which he does).

I Peter 1:1, 2 the sanctifying work of the Spirit is linked with our obedience to Christ (synergism, not monergism). Verb tenses elsewhere show an ongoing sanctifying work of the Spirit, not just an initial setting apart without actual conformity to the image of Christ (and the possibility of wrong, sinful choices along the way to glorification).

Heb. 10:14 there is a sense we are made perfect AND are being made holy...instant and progressive; positional and practical.

Rom. 12:1, 2 Again, the cooperative nature of our growth in holiness is seen...we are to offer our BODIES (not dead corpse or fleshly nature?!) as living sacrifices HOLY and pleasing to God. Some were offering their bodies to sin and bodily appetites (Rom. 6). The imperative is to no longer conform to the world and desires of the flesh (because some were), but to be transformed by the Spirit and the Word.

Rulz never uses Scripture? Go fly a kite.

 

[godrulz]

Ephesians 4 does not assume we are sinless and perfect with no need for maturation and growth. There is a sense of growth and attaining maturity and the full measure of Christ. It is not just initial and instantaneous. Character involves growth. Moving from the flesh to the Spirit as a new believer involves progress as evidenced by all the exhortations in Eph. 4; 5, etc.

The ministry of the Spirit is to sanctify us initially and then to sanctify us on an ongoing basis. It is a cooperative effort, based on all the rebukes, exhortations, and imperative relating to believers. His grace and work can be resisted. Hence, do not grieve and quench the Spirit who has set us apart. Live up to your high calling.

I Jn. 3:3 Everyone who has this hope in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF, just as He is pure (cf. 2 Cor. 7:1 for the Mid-Acts, Pauline types). We have a responsibility to respond to both the Word and Spirit in faith and obedience. This is spiritual growth and discipleship that in now way contradicts the Spirit's initial work of regeneration, justification, and sanctification. IT is not another gospel or another Jesus, like sozo accuses me of promoting. I am not a Judaizer. I am a believer who realizes that He who began a good work, continues it, and brings it to completion in a dynamic vs unilateral way.

Phil. 3:12-16 We are to live up to what we have attained. Some were not doing so.

Spiritual growth and maturity= time + Spirit + Word + prayer, etc. + obedience. This is why some saints are immature after decades in the faith and why others grow very quickly and are very mature after a short period of time (obedience or living up to the light we have or responding to the Spirit can hinder or enhance our rate of maturity).

This also explains how sozo can be a believer, set apart to God and so fleshly, immature, and unChristlike in some areas, but not others. The fact that James has to talk to believers about their unruly tongue shows that there are issues subsequent to salvation that must be dealt with so that we will be holy, as He is holy (I Peter 1:13-16). Corinthians is the Pauline equivalent showing that the sin of pride, division, immorality, etc. can plague the saints, even though we are in Christ.

Sozo, I now accept your recantation that I am a Christ-hating, demon-possessed false teacher. I believe these and other passages do not divorce our initial setting apart from actual setting apart as holy in our daily lives, choice by choice. This is not self-righteousness, but part of being a growing, maturing child of God whom the Father disciplines (Heb. 12) so that He may present us blameless in the end (Jude 24, 25). Even if some of my understanding is wrong, surely this is not tantamount to rejecting the person and work of Christ, whom I love and serve in the power of His might (despite my common struggles with other believers that does not negate the grace and love of God in my life). atrol: