ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
SaulToPaul said:
I don't believe it's "settled" either, just foreknown by God.

God knew Jonah would freely flee, God knew Nineveh would freely repent, it was all done as an example.
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If the future is "settled" in Gods mind, and there can be no change in the future.... in what sence IS the the future not settled? Does it only SEEM to be open TO US because of our limited perspective? But if it IS NOT OPEN TO GOD, and He know reality completly, could it be said that the future is GENUANLY NOT SETTLED?
 
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godrulz

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SaulToPaul said:
I don't believe it's "settled" either, just foreknown by God.

God knew Jonah would freely flee, God knew Nineveh would freely repent, it was all done as an example.
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If it is exhaustively foreknown, it is settled and unchangeable. If contingencies changed in the future, it would make God's foreknowledge wrong.

What you are trying to say is that you think God can just see something that is freely done. It is still settled in God's mind and like the fixed past. In Open Theism, it is correctly seen as possible (may or may not happen) since it is indeterminate before the actual choice (or it is not genuine choice...if it may or may not happen, there is an element of uncertainty, especially from trillions of years ago).
 
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godrulz

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Hall of Fame
penofareadywriter said:
If the future is "settled" in Gods mind, and there can be no change in the future.... in what sence IS the the future not settled? Does it only SEEM to be open TO US because of our limited perspective? But if it IS NOT OPEN TO GOD, and He know reality completly, could it be said that the future is GENUANLY NOT SETTLED?
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God knows reality as it is. The issue is the nature of creation/reality (free or deterministic), not the nature of omniscience/prescience/foreknowledge).

Just assuming simple foreknowledge does not mean it is coherent. Even if it is true, it offers no providential advantage since God could not change the future even if he wanted it to (it would make his foreknowledge of the accident, crime, danger, etc. wrong).
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

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godrulz said:
God knows reality as it is. The issue is the nature of creation/reality (free or deterministic), not the nature of omniscience/prescience/foreknowledge).

Just assuming simple foreknowledge does not mean it is coherent. Even if it is true, it offers no providential advantage since God could not change the future even if he wanted it to (it would make his foreknowledge of the accident, crime, danger, etc. wrong).
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Hey man, you are preaching to the choir!
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
Just curious, would you still believe in Jesus Christ had he not been born in Bethlehem as the prophet foretold?

After all, Joseph could have freely decided to stay in Nazareth until the child was born...or he could have freely decided to stay away from Bethlehem altogether, regardless of the census. This would have rendered the prophecy a failure.

What's your take?

For me, if the Lord had not been born in Bethlehem as fortetold by the prophet, I count him as an imposter.
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bump for Pen.......
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
SaulToPaul said:
bump for Pen.......
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No, I would not. There was no moral contingency on whether or not Jesus was born in Beth. This was just one of many sign posts to confirm the arrival of the true Christ. But if God declares judgement on free moral agents, if the moral agents repent and humble themselfs and pray, we are told the God will CHANGE HIS MIND concerning the judgement He had originally declared.
We are talking apples and oranges.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
penofareadywriter said:
No, I would not. There was no moral contingency on whether or not Jesus was born in Beth. This was just one of many sign posts to confirm the arrival of the true Christ. But if God declares judgement on free moral agents, if the moral agents repent and humble themselfs and pray, we are told the God will CHANGE HIS MIND concerning the judgement He had originally declared.
We are talking apples and oranges.
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How did God know that his Son would be born in Bethlehem?

Surely, he wanted his Son to be born in the city of Bread. But, surely, he did not force Joseph and Mary to go there.
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
SaulToPaul said:
How did God know that his Son would be born in Bethlehem?

Surely, he wanted his Son to be born in the city of Bread. But, surely, he did not force Joseph and Mary to go there.
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See, you are assuming this is an issue of knowledge vs an issue of ability. God is confident enogh in His ability inspire Josheph to go to Beth, just as He was confident enogh to tell Moses, it might take one, two or three miracles to convince the people, but they will listen to you, the same go's for inspiring people to write His Holy Word.
This is an issue of Gods ability, not knowlage.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
penofareadywriter said:
See, you are assuming this is an issue of knowledge vs an issue of ability. God is confident enogh in His ability inspire Josheph to go to Beth, just as He was confident enogh to tell Moses, it might take one, two or three miracles to convince the people, but they will listen to you, the same go's for inspiring people to write His Holy Word.
This is an issue of Gods ability, not knowlage.
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Did God also inspire these people?

Psalm 22
7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


Matthew 27
39: And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40: And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41: Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42: He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43: He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.


They said, practically word for word, what was prophesied 1,000 years earlier. Did God inspire them to say these things in order to fulfill scripture? Are you Calvinist? :)
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
SaulToPaul said:
Did God also inspire these people?

Psalm 22
7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


Matthew 27
39: And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40: And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41: Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42: He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43: He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.


They said, practically word for word, what was prophesied 1,000 years earlier. Did God inspire them to say these things in order to fulfill scripture? Are you Calvinist? :)
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Now you are talking about pears. You keep changing the subject on me.
Now concerning the prophecies you are refering to, that evil men would say certain things was certain to God. WHO those evil men were indivigually was NOT prophisied and not certain to God.
This is also how I view the elect. (Just in case you were going to go there next!) ;)
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
penofareadywriter said:
Now you are talking about pears.
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Are you dispensational?

If so, I'd like to take you through Acts sometime and prove to you that God foreknew who the remanant of Israelites were (specific individuals that he sent Paul to) that would come into the Body of Christ.

I guess you can consider this a banana. :banana:
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
SaulToPaul said:
Are you dispensational?

If so, I'd like to take you through Acts sometime and prove to you that God foreknew who the remanant of Israelites were (specific individuals that he sent Paul to) that would come into the Body of Christ.

I guess you can consider this a banana. :banana:
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What verses are you talking about? Just fire off a few.
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
SaulToPaul said:
Are you dispensational?

If so, I'd like to take you through Acts sometime and prove to you that God foreknew who the remanant of Israelites were (specific individuals that he sent Paul to) that would come into the Body of Christ.

I guess you can consider this a banana. :banana:
Click to expand...

How did I know. I feel like I am playing one of those games at Chucky Cheeses that you have to hit goffer heads with a hammer. You hit one, and another one pops up in a different place!:Clete:;)
 
G

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
SaulToPaul said:
How did God know that his Son would be born in Bethlehem?

Surely, he wanted his Son to be born in the city of Bread. But, surely, he did not force Joseph and Mary to go there.
Click to expand...

You underestimate God's ability to orchestrate and influence to bring things to pass. He is omnipotent, right?

As well, some prophecies are applied after the fact as illustrative and were not originally predictive (not necessarily that one since it is specific and Messianic).
 
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