ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

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godrulz

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Ktoyou said:
I know you know that I misspelled the word, something I rarely do

Forget the square circles idea, it is silly to pose such a question in reference to God. As God can do anything He so desires, how could He be limited by a human idea?
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Few atheists or scholarly theists deny that an omnipotent being cannot create square circles. The issue is a logical absurdity/contradiction, not a limitation on God. Can God cease to exist? Can God do things contrary to His moral nature? Can God do logically impossible things like make an orange the color orange and black at the same time? Make married bachelors?

You will believe incoherent things if you wrongly assume that God can to whatever He desires. God cannot cease to be Deity and incarnate as the puppet Yoda to run the universe. God cannot die nor lie. God cannot make Satan God and turn Himself into Satan. He cannot make Jesus Christ of Nazareth, George Bush and Marilyn Monroe at the same time. If you think he can because He is God or that He might desire to so it must be possible, I cannot reason with you. In your world, 2+2=4 and 5. God is either triune or not. He cannot make Himself solitary or 100-fold. There is either one God or many gods. Jesus is either God or created being. He cannot be both in His pre-existence, etc. etc.
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
godrulz said:
Few atheists or scholarly theists deny that an omnipotent being cannot create square circles. The issue is a logical absurdity/contradiction, not a limitation on God. Can God cease to exist? Can God do things contrary to His moral nature? Can God do logically impossible things like make an orange the color orange and black at the same time? Make married bachelors?

You will believe incoherent things if you wrongly assume that God can to whatever He desires. God cannot cease to be Deity and incarnate as the puppet Yoda to run the universe. God cannot die nor lie. God cannot make Satan God and turn Himself into Satan. He cannot make Jesus Christ of Nazareth, George Bush and Marilyn Monroe at the same time. If you think he can because He is God or that He might desire to so it must be possible, I cannot reason with you. In your world, 2+2=4 and 5. God is either triune or not. He cannot make Himself solitary or 100-fold. There is either one God or many gods. Jesus is either God or created being. He cannot be both in His pre-existence, etc. etc.
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I have been thinking a lot about time. Did god create it or not. I was leaning toward the latter untill I came across this verse,
1 Corinthians 2:7 NIV

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began."

I was wondering how you see this verse?
 
Ktoyou

Ktoyou

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godrulz said:
Few atheists or scholarly theists deny that an omnipotent being cannot create square circles. The issue is a logical absurdity/contradiction, not a limitation on God. Can God cease to exist? Can God do things contrary to His moral nature? Can God do logically impossible things like make an orange the color orange and black at the same time? Make married bachelors?

You will believe incoherent things if you wrongly assume that God can to whatever He desires. God cannot cease to be Deity and incarnate as the puppet Yoda to run the universe. God cannot die nor lie. God cannot make Satan God and turn Himself into Satan. He cannot make Jesus Christ of Nazareth, George Bush and Marilyn Monroe at the same time. If you think he can because He is God or that He might desire to so it must be possible, I cannot reason with you. In your world, 2+2=4 and 5. God is either triune or not. He cannot make Himself solitary or 100-fold. There is either one God or many gods. Jesus is either God or created being. He cannot be both in His pre-existence, etc. etc.
Click to expand...

You are failing to grasp my point. God is not limited by pea-brain human concepts and rationality is one of those concepts. There is no “cannot’ connected to God because God is all powerful without limit. He can do anything, even what seems illogical to little human minds.

It is not in our understanding of His nature that he would abdicate, thinking such is a heresy. We have faith in our limited understanding of God and it must be a limited understanding, otherwise every atheist with a new discovery is a threat. We know God through our faith.

I believe God acts according to His nature, just as I do; I could shoot myself in the head, but it is against my nature to do so, not my ability to do so.

BTW: you can reason with me and do a good job. I wish other good reasonable persons would jump in, such as AMR or Clete, and assuranceagent. Too much nonsense on the boards recently!
 
Lighthouse

Lighthouse

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penofareadywriter said:
I have been thinking a lot about time. Did god create it or not. I was leaning toward the latter untill I came across this verse,
1 Corinthians 2:7 NIV

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began."

I was wondering how you see this verse?
Click to expand...
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"
-KJV

The original word does not mean "time.":nono:
 
G

godrulz

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penofareadywriter said:
I have been thinking a lot about time. Did god create it or not. I was leaning toward the latter untill I came across this verse,
1 Corinthians 2:7 NIV

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began."

I was wondering how you see this verse?
Click to expand...

I answered this to your email and on the other thread...

Greek 'before the ages'

This idiom refers to God's thoughts before our creation and the beginning of our time/history, not to time itself fundamentally. It is not a scientific statement nor proof text to prove or disprove timelessness vs endless time. Time is not a created thing, space/place. It is a concept of duration/succession/sequence, a philosophical vs physical issue.
 
G

godrulz

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Hall of Fame
Lighthouse said:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"
-KJV

The original word does not mean "time.":nono:
Click to expand...

Before the ages (literally)...before our world began, not time itself which is endless, even in the eternal God's triune relations.
 
G

godrulz

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penofareadywriter said:
Ok... how about this. Is saying God is outside of time the same thing as saying God is timeless?:turbo:
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In the lingo of traditional views, yes. The analogy is a timeline and God outside of the line looking down on the past, present, and future all at once. The problem is applying spatial analogies to the concept of time which is neither a thing nor space.

Those who say that God is outside of time are defining eternity as timelessness (eternal now view). We are not saying God is in time (since time is not a place), but that it is an aspect of His eternal experience. i.e. duration/sequence/succession were experienced in the triune relations because He is personal; consciousness involves change in will, intellect, emotions; time is a measurement of change.

Try listening to an orchestra play a piece in one moment. It is cacophony, not music.

God has a history. He has a past and will have a future. There is no need to blur these distinctions. The academic discussions involve A vs B theory of time (presentism vs eternalism). They get quite technical.

This is a good intro to the main views in evangelical circles:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Gregory-E-Ganssle/dp/0830815511

I agree with Wolterstorff (click search inside for contents)
 
CJ37

CJ37

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Can you imagine the pressure of being an Old Testament prophet ?

Knowing that a prophecy given to you by God may have a remote chance to fail , and the penatly is your death by stoning!
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

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CJ37 said:
Can you imagine the pressure of being an Old Testament prophet ?

Knowing that a prophecy given to you by God may have a remote chance to fail , and the penatly is your death by stoning!
Click to expand...

The point of the verse you are talking about was addressing FALSE PROPHETS! The point was not about God being flexible in will. The point was " If you said God spoke to me and you spoke as such, and God DID NOT speak to you, then you are in trouble!

You are taking scripture way out of context in your sarcastic to make a point.:sherlock:
 
F

farthioner

New member
penofareadywriter said:
The point of the verse you are talking about was addressing FALSE PROPHETS! The point was not about God being flexible in will. The point was " If you said God spoke to me and you spoke as such, and God DID NOT speak to you, then you are in trouble!
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That is very true. But the Bible classifies a false prophet as one who prophecies falsely.:duh:

I'm not trying to imply anything, simply stating that Cj does have a point.
 
CJ37

CJ37

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farthioner said:
That is very true. But the Bible classifies a false prophet as one who prophecies falsely.:duh:

I'm not trying to imply anything, simply stating that Cj does have a point.
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Exactly

And I guess if Ezekiel had been wrong about something, he would have just claimed it was God's mistake, not his

"Please dont stone me! Allow me to explain Open Theism to you! This is God's mistake, not mine!"
 
penofareadywriter

penofareadywriter

New member
CJ37 said:
Exactly

And I guess if Ezekiel had been wrong about something, he would have just claimed it was God's mistake, not his

"Please dont stone me! Allow me to explain Open Theism to you! This is God's mistake, not mine!"
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It is pretty clear you have never studied the open view because you are grossly misrepresenting it! If you have any interest to...here is a good place to start!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6UA1bToI7U&feature=PlayList&p=DDCA20269DE3EDC3&index=0&playnext=1
 
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